DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
RateTheRef
HTML https://ratetheref.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 49358--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: bmb
Date: June 5, 2022, 2:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TVOS link ---
>
> I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a
Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a
game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind
closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children
and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the
England players, whether by the children or their parents,
clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.
>
--- End Quote ---
Article 73 of UEFA's disciplinary regulations states that
certain exceptions can be made, including "children up to the
age of 14 (duly accompanied) from schools and/or football
academies." It's not children and parents, it has to be school
groups and children who play for football academies accompanied
on a 1 to 10 ratio by teachers and academy staff. Approval has
to be sought from UEFA with a list of schools & academies
provided to them prior to the invitations so they can check they
are genuine. The same 'loophole' England are using for their
closed behind doors match v Italy.
England fans have booed their own players taking the knee way
too many times to count, at club and country level, so no it is
not a Hungarian problem, it is far wider than that. Gareth
Southgate has appealed for Englands own fans to stop booing it
several times. Yes it was Hungary fans yesterday, and I have
made it clear I disagree with them doing so, but it is not just
a Hungarian problem and that is the point. It has happened in
other countries with other fans including Englands own fans.
You say you "don't think anyone was pretending it is just a
Hungarian/Eastern European problem" and then say "clearly is a
Hungarian problem" which completely contradicts the first part.
If it was clearly a Hungarian problem then it wouldn't happen in
England or anywhere else would it?
#Post#: 49360--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: June 5, 2022, 2:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, there was certainly a lot of booing by England fans when
the England players took the knee before some friendlies before
the Euros last summer. A lot of leading politicians refused to
condemn it and some even seemed to support it.
England's game V Italy next weekend was ordered to be behind
closed doors after the Euro 2020 final trouble but I think I
heard this weekend that free tickets would similarly be given to
some schools and so on.
#Post#: 49362--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: TVOS
Date: June 5, 2022, 2:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=3773.msg49354#msg49354
date=1654453042]
> I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a
Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a
game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind
closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children
and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the
England players, whether by the children or their parents,
clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.
>
--- End Quote ---
Article 73 of UEFA's disciplinary regulations states that
certain exceptions can be made, including "children up to the
age of 14 (duly accompanied) from schools and/or football
academies." It's not children and parents, it has to be school
groups and children who play for football academies accompanied
on a 1 to 10 ratio by teachers and academy staff. Approval has
to be sought from UEFA with a list of schools & academies
provided to them prior to the invitations so they can check they
are genuine. The same 'loophole' England are using for their
closed behind doors match v Italy.
England fans have booed their own players taking the knee way
too many times to count, at club and country level, so no it is
not a Hungarian problem, it is far wider than that. Gareth
Southgate has appealed for Englands own fans to stop booing it
several times. Yes it was Hungary fans yesterday, and I have
made it clear I disagree with them doing so, but it is not just
a Hungarian problem and that is the point. It has happened in
other countries with other fans including Englands own fans.
You say you "don't think anyone was pretending it is just a
Hungarian/Eastern European problem" and then say "clearly is a
Hungarian problem" which completely contradicts the first part.
If it was clearly a Hungarian problem then it wouldn't happen in
England or anywhere else would it?
[/quote]
But LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, which was the original
point being made from the first time it was mentioned on this
thread. You have taken it in a different direction because of
your affiliation to Hungary.
When I said I didn't think anyone was pretending it was just a
Hungarian/European problem, I was referring to racist issues in
general across the game worldwide, not specifically what
happened LAST NIGHT. There was no contradiction whatsoever on my
part and I'm disappointed you think so.
So I'll say it again, LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, in
particular with children being accompanied to the game by
adults, regardless of which school, club or team they represent.
What does or doesn't happen in England or other countries does
not alter what happened LAST NIGHT. If it does happen in Munich
or at Molineux next week, then that's a discussion for a
different day and a new thread.
Personally, I don't agree with taking the knee at any match;
it's been done to death now, we even have to see it before the
main game on every episode of Match of the Day, with the
commentators constantly repeating why the players are doing it.
All of us know why they are doing it and I'm not really sure
what purpose it serves anymore, especially when some fans are
using it to voice their disapproval. Is it really necessary to
show it on a highlights programme every week?
That, though, is my own personal view. I would never choose to
boo it or condemn those who want to take the knee, because I
respect their own choices, but when it gets a reaction like it
did last night, is it really working?
#Post#: 49366--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: ajb95
Date: June 5, 2022, 3:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TVOS link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=3773.msg49358#msg49358
date=1654455859]
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=3773.msg49354#msg49354
date=1654453042]
> I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a
Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a
game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind
closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children
and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the
England players, whether by the children or their parents,
clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.
>
--- End Quote ---
Article 73 of UEFA's disciplinary regulations states that
certain exceptions can be made, including "children up to the
age of 14 (duly accompanied) from schools and/or football
academies." It's not children and parents, it has to be school
groups and children who play for football academies accompanied
on a 1 to 10 ratio by teachers and academy staff. Approval has
to be sought from UEFA with a list of schools & academies
provided to them prior to the invitations so they can check they
are genuine. The same 'loophole' England are using for their
closed behind doors match v Italy.
England fans have booed their own players taking the knee way
too many times to count, at club and country level, so no it is
not a Hungarian problem, it is far wider than that. Gareth
Southgate has appealed for Englands own fans to stop booing it
several times. Yes it was Hungary fans yesterday, and I have
made it clear I disagree with them doing so, but it is not just
a Hungarian problem and that is the point. It has happened in
other countries with other fans including Englands own fans.
You say you "don't think anyone was pretending it is just a
Hungarian/Eastern European problem" and then say "clearly is a
Hungarian problem" which completely contradicts the first part.
If it was clearly a Hungarian problem then it wouldn't happen in
England or anywhere else would it?
[/quote]
But LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, which was the original
point being made from the first time it was mentioned on this
thread. You have taken it in a different direction because of
your affiliation to Hungary.
When I said I didn't think anyone was pretending it was just a
Hungarian/European problem, I was referring to racist issues in
general across the game worldwide, not specifically what
happened LAST NIGHT. There was no contradiction whatsoever on my
part and I'm disappointed you think so.
So I'll say it again, LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, in
particular with children being accompanied to the game by
adults, regardless of which school, club or team they represent.
What does or doesn't happen in England or other countries does
not alter what happened LAST NIGHT. If it does happen in Munich
or at Molineux next week, then that's a discussion for a
different day and a new thread.
Personally, I don't agree with taking the knee at any match;
it's been done to death now, we even have to see it before the
main game on every episode of Match of the Day, with the
commentators constantly repeating why the players are doing it.
All of us know why they are doing it and I'm not really sure
what purpose it serves anymore, especially when some fans are
using it to voice their disapproval. Is it really necessary to
show it on a highlights programme every week?
That, though, is my own personal view. I would never choose to
boo it or condemn those who want to take the knee, because I
respect their own choices, but when it gets a reaction like it
did last night, is it really working?
[/quote]
Hear hear
#Post#: 49375--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: June 5, 2022, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This may seem like counting angels on a pinhead but I think it
is better to say such conduct is a widespread problem which in
this instance found its expression with some Hungarian
spectators. When hooliganism was rife in the 1980s it was often
described as an " English disease " I took great exception to
that statement for two reasons. First because really bad
hooliganism was also taking place among supporters who had no
connection to England and secondly because I did not wish to be
associated with such a given national trait as the word English
encompasses all people who are from and of England. By all means
say it is a problem for the football authorities in Hungary
caused by some Hungarian spectators and if there is sufficient
evidence either way go on to opine that it is a problem which is
or is not been adequately addressed.
I genuinely see the value of nuance here but if others don't,
then so be it.
#Post#: 49376--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: bmb
Date: June 5, 2022, 6:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TVOS link ---
>
> is it really working?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Simply - no. I understand the point and agree with it but it
stopped working the minute the BLM social movement that started
out with such good and valid intentions, was hijacked by
extremists who call for defunding the police and whatever else
it is they scream about. At that point it just became divisive
and the original good intentions were lost. Abroad there are the
cultural differences to also contend with. Several clubs have
stopped doing it now because it has become so divisive.
Culturally Hungary has a huge xenophobic problem, as does the
rest of Eastern Europe, that stems back centuries with all the
border disputes over the past 1000 years or so. The Trianon
treaty (signed 102 years ago yesterday so a big day in Hungary)
put that into writing with enforced border changes that led to
millions of Eastern Europeans (3.3 - 5 million Hungarians)
living in a different country to the day before it came into
force. Very few of those countries did, and still to this day do
not treat the ethnic other nationalities in their country very
well to say the least, despite that being a condition of the
treaty. Ethnic cleansing has been going on ever since hence the
very strong xenophobia. Hungary hate the Romanians because of
the dreadful treatment of ethnic Hungarian Transylvanians and
Székelys, they in turn hate the Hungarians over their dreadful
treatment of the Roma. The Yugoslav war just intensified it,
everyone but the Romanians hated the Serbs and the ethnic
cleansing that went on during that period, and there's a lot of
left over anger and hatred from just 30 years ago when that went
on. They simply do not understand the whole racism issue because
it is not an issue in their own country amongst the general
population at large. 99% do not care what colour you are but do
care strongly about where you are from. The taking of the knee
there is seen as western Europe trying to enforce its beliefs
onto them where these same hatreds do not exist in the first
place. That is what they are reacting to, the method of the
message rather than the message itself.
Personally I think it is doing more harm than good now but like
you I would never boo anyone (or abuse anyone) who wishes to use
it to demonstrate no to racism. I actually prefer what our
players do, they have a slight pause and then point to the
respect badges on their shirts, with their heads bowed. I can
guarantee if England did that in Hungary as their gesture they
would receive applause.
#Post#: 49387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: June 6, 2022, 6:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=3773.msg49362#msg49362
date=1654458530]
> is it really working?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Simply - no. I understand the point and agree with it but it
stopped working the minute the BLM social movement that started
out with such good and valid intentions, was hijacked by
extremists who call for defunding the police and whatever else
it is they scream about. At that point it just became divisive
and the original good intentions were lost. Abroad there are the
cultural differences to also contend with. Several clubs have
stopped doing it now because it has become so divisive.
Culturally Hungary has a huge xenophobic problem, as does the
rest of Eastern Europe, that stems back centuries with all the
border disputes over the past 1000 years or so. The Trianon
treaty (signed 102 years ago yesterday so a big day in Hungary)
put that into writing with enforced border changes that led to
millions of Eastern Europeans (3.3 - 5 million Hungarians)
living in a different country to the day before it came into
force. Very few of those countries did, and still to this day do
not treat the ethnic other nationalities in their country very
well to say the least, despite that being a condition of the
treaty. Ethnic cleansing has been going on ever since hence the
very strong xenophobia. Hungary hate the Romanians because of
the dreadful treatment of ethnic Hungarian Transylvanians and
Székelys, they in turn hate the Hungarians over their dreadful
treatment of the Roma. The Yugoslav war just intensified it,
everyone but the Romanians hated the Serbs and the ethnic
cleansing that went on during that period, and there's a lot of
left over anger and hatred from just 30 years ago when that went
on. They simply do not understand the whole racism issue because
it is not an issue in their own country amongst the general
population at large. 99% do not care what colour you are but do
care strongly about where you are from. The taking of the knee
there is seen as western Europe trying to enforce its beliefs
onto them where these same hatreds do not exist in the first
place. That is what they are reacting to, the method of the
message rather than the message itself.
Personally I think it is doing more harm than good now but like
you I would never boo anyone (or abuse anyone) who wishes to use
it to demonstrate no to racism. I actually prefer what our
players do, they have a slight pause and then point to the
respect badges on their shirts, with their heads bowed. I can
guarantee if England did that in Hungary as their gesture they
would receive applause.
[/quote]
I too think that it does more harm than good, however, I just
stand by and watch silently and that is the end of it.
May I ask, bmb, if the media in Hungary, Romania etc., go right
over the top about this whole thing as the English media have
done once again this weekend. Channel 4 talked and talked about
this at half time, the British press has been full of it blah,
blah, blah.
Do the Hungarian and Eastern European press criticise the
English players for taking the knee or do they ignore it? Are
they responsible for encouraging the fans to boo this practice?
In other words, are they trying to manipulate things exactly as
the British media strive to do?
#Post#: 49392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: bmb
Date: June 6, 2022, 7:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> I too think that it does more harm than good, however, I just
stand by and watch silently and that is the end of it.
> May I ask, bmb, if the media in Hungary, Romania etc., go
right over the top about this whole thing as the English media
have done once again this weekend. Channel 4 talked and talked
about this at half time, the British press has been full of it
blah, blah, blah.
> Do the Hungarian and Eastern European press criticise the
English players for taking the knee or do they ignore it? Are
they responsible for encouraging the fans to boo this practice?
In other words, are they trying to manipulate things exactly as
the British media strive to do?
>
--- End Quote ---
They don't so much criticise it but they don't understand it
either (the gesture not the message) and there will be the odd
comment about 'why do they refuse to respect our culture and try
and enforce their ideologies that we don't need onto us' or 'why
do they always try to bring politics into the game, we're here
for the football, not their politics' type of thing but it will
be a singular throw away comment. A couple of lines at most. Any
other comment about it is about the British media asking if they
actually watched the game or were just there to try and impose
Western views onto Eastern Europe. 99.9% of any reports, verbal
or written, have been about the game itself. High praise for
Loďc Nego in particular, who has been given the MOM by I think
every media outlet. Lots of talk about how exciting this squad
is to watch and how young the majority of them are and therefore
talk about are they the new mighty Magyars & are we seeing the
glory days start to return. Focus on Ádám Szalai and the fact
he's about 90, wondering how much longer he can go on, what a
huge influence he is and who can possibly replace him when he
retires. Praise for Marco Rossi and the general consensus this
was the best game of his tenure so far and what a fantastic
coach he is but why do we always lose 27-0 v Albania. Our sports
journalists write and talk about the football, the game itself,
the stats etc. as you expect to be able to read in a sports
report and our political/news journalists don't see it as
anything worth even mentioning.
#Post#: 49397--------------------------------------------------
Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: June 6, 2022, 8:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=3773.msg49387#msg49387
date=1654514663]
> I too think that it does more harm than good, however, I just
stand by and watch silently and that is the end of it.
> May I ask, bmb, if the media in Hungary, Romania etc., go
right over the top about this whole thing as the English media
have done once again this weekend. Channel 4 talked and talked
about this at half time, the British press has been full of it
blah, blah, blah.
> Do the Hungarian and Eastern European press criticise the
English players for taking the knee or do they ignore it? Are
they responsible for encouraging the fans to boo this practice?
In other words, are they trying to manipulate things exactly as
the British media strive to do?
>
--- End Quote ---
They don't so much criticise it but they don't understand it
either (the gesture not the message) and there will be the odd
comment about 'why do they refuse to respect our culture and try
and enforce their ideologies that we don't need onto us' or 'why
do they always try to bring politics into the game, we're here
for the football, not their politics' type of thing but it will
be a singular throw away comment. A couple of lines at most. Any
other comment about it is about the British media asking if they
actually watched the game or were just there to try and impose
Western views onto Eastern Europe. 99.9% of any reports, verbal
or written, have been about the game itself. High praise for
Loďc Nego in particular, who has been given the MOM by I think
every media outlet. Lots of talk about how exciting this squad
is to watch and how young the majority of them are and therefore
talk about are they the new mighty Magyars & are we seeing the
glory days start to return. Focus on Ádám Szalai and the fact
he's about 90, wondering how much longer he can go on, what a
huge influence he is and who can possibly replace him when he
retires. Praise for Marco Rossi and the general consensus this
was the best game of his tenure so far and what a fantastic
coach he is but why do we always lose 27-0 v Albania. Our sports
journalists write and talk about the football, the game itself,
the stats etc. as you expect to be able to read in a sports
report and our political/news journalists don't see it as
anything worth even mentioning.
[/quote]
Many thanks for the information which is more or less what I
thought.
It will be interesting to see what transpires when England play
Germany on Tuesday. Sadly, football is used as the vehicle to
court controversy and there will always be a minority of fans
who are unable, or unwilling, to see the folly of their ways and
just jump on the bandwagon.
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 3
DIR Previous Page