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#Post#: 47255--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: Whistleblower Date: April 26, 2022, 2:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Combining my two interests of football refereeing and geography
I have looked at the residences of Cup Final referees over the
last 45 years. ( I know it's sad but there you go ) It shows
what I had hitherto suspected that in senior appointments there
has been a noticeable drift northwards in recent years. Here are
my findings
In the last 15 years there has been only 1 FA Cup Final Referee
to live south of Birmingham ( Lee Probert ) and 13 from north
and 1 level ( Marriner )
In the 15 years before that there were 10 Referees coming from
south of Birmingham and 5 from north
In the 15 years before that there were 9 referees coming from
south of Birmingham and 6 from north.
The results from the most recent 15 years are skewed slightly
because Taylor and Oliver, both north, were appointed twice.
When one looks at likely appointees to the FA Cup Final in the
next few years Tierney, Attwell, Bankes, A Madley, England,
Coote then all are north except Attwell who is level with
Birmingham.
I haven't done an analysis of present SG1 referees but I am sure
most of them are from the north of Birmingham.
There appears to be a clear northern drift. I wonder why ? I
have heard it said a few times ( and by people who have moved
location from north to south and vice versa )that when a referee
is making their way through the ranks then the Assessments and
Observations are more kindly and positive in the north than the
south. I don't know. It may be that there is more referee
investment in the north than the south. Or it may all just be a
statistical quirk. Any thoughts ?
#Post#: 47256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: Leggy Date: April 26, 2022, 2:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Fred Graham?? I thought he was an Essex Boy.
The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and
Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.
#Post#: 47264--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: TheThingFromLewes Date: April 26, 2022, 4:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=3624.msg47239#msg47239
date=1650918553]
[quote author=RCG link=topic=3624.msg47236#msg47236
date=1650917636]
Barry Knight ?!?! 😀
[/quote]
I was thinking more in terms of FA Cup Final Referees and I
don't suppose Barry Knight ever came close to that honour. He
was I presume affiliated to Kent FA through his residence in
Orpington, now in Greater London but historically Kent. As to
whether he was a good 'un, I retain a neutral stance.
[/quote]
Mr Knight was the official in charge of the infamous Dyer and
Bowyer punch up at Newcastle v Villa.
I think he’s the only official to get his circle
⭕️ card out three times in one match to one side?
#Post#: 47270--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: bmb Date: April 26, 2022, 5:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Leggy link=topic=3624.msg47256#msg47256
date=1650957984]
Fred Graham?? I thought he was an Essex Boy.
The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and
Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.
[/quote]
Taking into consideration my level of geography - Essex is Kent!
[emoji15]
#Post#: 47272--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: Leggy Date: April 26, 2022, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bmb link=topic=3624.msg47270#msg47270
date=1650969542]
[quote author=Leggy link=topic=3624.msg47256#msg47256
date=1650957984]
Fred Graham?? I thought he was an Essex Boy.
The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and
Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.
[/quote]
Taking into consideration my level of geography - Essex is Kent!
[emoji15]
[/quote]
Do you realise the trouble you can cause for saying such things?
Take yourself off to the naughty step, assuming you can find
it!!
#Post#: 47274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: bmb Date: April 26, 2022, 5:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Leggy link=topic=3624.msg47272#msg47272
date=1650970029]
[quote author=bmb link=topic=3624.msg47270#msg47270
date=1650969542]
[quote author=Leggy link=topic=3624.msg47256#msg47256
date=1650957984]
Fred Graham?? I thought he was an Essex Boy.
The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and
Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.
[/quote]
Taking into consideration my level of geography - Essex is Kent!
[emoji15]
[/quote]
Do you realise the trouble you can cause for saying such things?
Take yourself off to the naughty step, assuming you can find
it!!
[/quote]
[attach=1]
#Post#: 47291--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: mauricelapin Date: April 26, 2022, 6:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=3624.msg47240#msg47240
date=1650918871]
Hard to think of many more Kent referees on the National List in
the last 40 years. I think for a time Paul Alcock and John
Moules lived in the County and Phil Crossley of course. Can't
think of any more off the top of my head but there may be some.
[/quote]
A little over 40 years, but I recall that Keith Walker hailed
from Maidstone. I always liked his style, but have a feeling
that one Derek Dougan did not.....
#Post#: 47319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: rustyref Date: April 26, 2022, 1:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=3624.msg47255#msg47255
date=1650957905]
Combining my two interests of football refereeing and geography
I have looked at the residences of Cup Final referees over the
last 45 years. ( I know it's sad but there you go ) It shows
what I had hitherto suspected that in senior appointments there
has been a noticeable drift northwards in recent years. Here are
my findings
In the last 15 years there has been only 1 FA Cup Final Referee
to live south of Birmingham ( Lee Probert ) and 13 from north
and 1 level ( Marriner )
In the 15 years before that there were 10 Referees coming from
south of Birmingham and 5 from north
In the 15 years before that there were 9 referees coming from
south of Birmingham and 6 from north.
The results from the most recent 15 years are skewed slightly
because Taylor and Oliver, both north, were appointed twice.
When one looks at likely appointees to the FA Cup Final in the
next few years Tierney, Attwell, Bankes, A Madley, England,
Coote then all are north except Attwell who is level with
Birmingham.
I haven't done an analysis of present SG1 referees but I am sure
most of them are from the north of Birmingham.
There appears to be a clear northern drift. I wonder why ? I
have heard it said a few times ( and by people who have moved
location from north to south and vice versa )that when a referee
is making their way through the ranks then the Assessments and
Observations are more kindly and positive in the north than the
south. I don't know. It may be that there is more referee
investment in the north than the south. Or it may all just be a
statistical quirk. Any thoughts ?
[/quote]
Several theories on this. A lot of people move to the South,
especially the South East and London, when they are young but
then move away when settling down and starting a family, not
being able to afford the SE house prices. Don't know if that
applies to any of the current SG1, but it certainly applies to
loads of L3s and above over the years who came through the ranks
down here before moving away.
Also, for years the promotion system has been skewed in favour
of the North, albeit accidentally. As a L3 in the South you
would have almost always been refereeing step 3 and 4 games, in
many leagues further North they would be refereeing step 5. As
it is a combined merit table that was never a level playing
field, I know from experience that refereeing step 3 is
generally a lot more challenging than step 5. Thankfully that
has now been sorted out, so my theory will be proved or
otherwise in years to come when we see if there has been a shift
in the balance.
One of the big problems I had as an L3 in London was travel. I
worked in the City, and that was well before working from home
became the norm, and it caused me real problems as before going
to the game I'd first have to go home and get the car. Luckily
I had an understanding boss, but it was still draining as I had
to be up at 5 to get in for 6.30 so that I could leave in time
to get to the game, which could easily be a 2 hour, or more for
National League games, drive away. Its no surprise that I saved
all of my worst performances for midweek games, as often I was
knackered before even blowing a whistle. It took a period out
through injury to make me realise I couldn't sustain that, and I
know of several other London based referees who felt the same
way, in that they couldn't continue in both their job and senior
refereeing.
#Post#: 47355--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: Leggy Date: April 27, 2022, 12:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I would 100% support RustyRefs last paragraph. I also worked in
the City and my worst performances were certainly midweek. I
was rarely "late" to a game, but if I was struggling for time it
would always be midweek. Relying on Southern Trains to get me
home from work so that I could then venture out (often using the
M25) for a game was a high-risk activity.
I don't know if that embeds an advantage for referees from the
midlands and the north, but it was hard work and without an
understanding boss would have caused me to quit sooner than I
did.
I do also think that there is a skewing of top non-league sides
towards the south, meaning the referees in this part of the
world had more challenging games and fewer opportunities to
"shine". We always believed, however, that "the system" worked
and that the cream would rise to the top.
#Post#: 47359--------------------------------------------------
Re: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY
2022
By: Claretman Date: April 27, 2022, 2:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TheThingFromLewes
link=topic=3624.msg47264#msg47264 date=1650964712]
[quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=3624.msg47239#msg47239
date=1650918553]
[quote author=RCG link=topic=3624.msg47236#msg47236
date=1650917636]
Barry Knight ?!?! 😀
[/quote]
I was thinking more in terms of FA Cup Final Referees and I
don't suppose Barry Knight ever came close to that honour. He
was I presume affiliated to Kent FA through his residence in
Orpington, now in Greater London but historically Kent. As to
whether he was a good 'un, I retain a neutral stance.
[/quote]
Mr Knight was the official in charge of the infamous Dyer and
Bowyer punch up at Newcastle v Villa.
I think he’s the only official to get his circle
⭕️ card out three times in one match to one side?
[/quote]
If i remember right that night, villa were 1-0 up against 11,
scored two more against 10 bothe penalties by barry one after
taylor was sent off but failed to add to the score when
newcastle were reduced to 8.
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