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       #Post#: 45262--------------------------------------------------
       Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: Deanspen
       Date: March 13, 2022, 12:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Comforting to see that the 4th official is policing the
       technical areas with appropriate due diligence……apparently they
       now seemingly must extend much much further than was ever
       previously envisaged by the white demarcation lines. Basically
       go where you like.
       #Post#: 45265--------------------------------------------------
       A TAYLOR - Arsenal v Leicester 
   DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
       Date: March 13, 2022, 12:44 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Taylor to the monitor… looks like a penalty and a possible red
       card for Soyuncu.
       Edit… Taylor gone yellow… player on the line saved his bacon by
       the looks of it.
       #Post#: 45266--------------------------------------------------
       Re: A TAYLOR - Arsenal v Leicester 
   DIR By: Joecphillips
       Date: March 13, 2022, 1:02 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I’d say he got it right, player on the line saved him there
       #Post#: 45289--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: Conkernut
       Date: March 14, 2022, 4:10 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this
       one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the
       VAR should have been able to make.
       #Post#: 45296--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: Leggy
       Date: March 14, 2022, 5:35 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Conkernut link ---
       >
       >
       > What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for
       this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that
       the VAR should have been able to make.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Possibly to debate the possible red card?  Did the handball slow
       the flow of the ball enough for the man on the line to defend,
       or would he have defended regardless?  The outcome was that he
       have defended regardless, hence the yellow (not red) card.
       #Post#: 45299--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: ARF
       Date: March 14, 2022, 5:57 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Conkernut link ---
       >
       >
       > What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for
       this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that
       the VAR should have been able to make.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural
       position, hence the OFR.
       #Post#: 45301--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: Readingfan
       Date: March 14, 2022, 6:12 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: ARF link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Conkernut link=topic=3466.msg45289#msg45289
       date=1647249016]
       >
       > What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for
       this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that
       the VAR should have been able to make.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural
       position, hence the OFR.
       [/quote]
       Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation,
       regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to
       make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed.
       Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick
       and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the
       monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee
       just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things
       like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.
       #Post#: 45307--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: Leggy
       Date: March 14, 2022, 9:40 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
       >
       > [quote author=ARF link=topic=3466.msg45299#msg45299
       date=1647255437]
       > [quote author=Conkernut link=topic=3466.msg45289#msg45289
       date=1647249016]
       >
       > What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for
       this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that
       the VAR should have been able to make.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural
       position, hence the OFR.
       [/quote]
       Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation,
       regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to
       make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed.
       Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick
       and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the
       monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee
       just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things
       like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.
       [/quote]
       That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He
       said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to
       determine the personal sanction.
       #Post#: 45312--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: bmb
       Date: March 14, 2022, 10:19 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Leggy link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=3466.msg45301#msg45301
       date=1647256323]
       > [quote author=ARF link=topic=3466.msg45299#msg45299
       date=1647255437]
       > [quote author=Conkernut link=topic=3466.msg45289#msg45289
       date=1647249016]
       >
       > What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for
       this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that
       the VAR should have been able to make.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural
       position, hence the OFR.
       [/quote]
       Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation,
       regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to
       make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed.
       Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick
       and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the
       monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee
       just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things
       like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.
       [/quote]
       That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He
       said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to
       determine the personal sanction.
       [/quote]
       I'm not convinced handball is a simple matter of fact.  There is
       the factual element in whether the ball makes contact in the
       green not handball area or the red handball area but even if it
       is in the red area it's not necessarily an offence within the
       LOTG dependant upon other criteria. Was the arm in a natural
       position - is that 100% factual or is there an element of
       subjectiveness? Was the player making themself bigger - I'd say
       probably factual but again is there a degree of subjectiveness?
       If the ball hits a players arm when he is on the floor & is
       being supported by his arm - that's considered accidental but
       then does how close his arm is to the body come into play? It
       could be right by his side or it could be a lot further out if
       he is at an angle. Does it then become subjective as to if his
       arm is supporting him or is considered in an unnatural position?
       If his arm is moving away from his body on the ground because of
       the way he is falling/has fallen still natural or is it
       considered moving his arm towards the ball?  If he's put his
       hands out to stop himself from face planting into the ground -
       is that a natural position or not? IMO, handball is not 100%
       factual because there are too many factors to consider
       particularly in terms of what is or isn't an offence when the
       ball hits the arm in the red area. Determining if x, y, z
       criteria have all been satisfied to reach the conclusion of yes
       handball offence or no not an offence under the LOTG make it
       more of a subjective decision in my book. What I see as a
       natural position for the arm when jumping, for example, someone
       else may see as unnatural and an attempt to make the body
       bigger. I would personally go as far as to say the only time
       handball is 100% factual is when it is in a green no hand ball
       area because there are no added ifs and buts.
       #Post#: 45322--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
   DIR By: nemesis
       Date: March 14, 2022, 11:14 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: bmb link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Leggy link=topic=3466.msg45307#msg45307
       date=1647268832]
       > [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=3466.msg45301#msg45301
       date=1647256323]
       > [quote author=ARF link=topic=3466.msg45299#msg45299
       date=1647255437]
       > [quote author=Conkernut link=topic=3466.msg45289#msg45289
       date=1647249016]
       >
       > What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for
       this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that
       the VAR should have been able to make.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural
       position, hence the OFR.
       [/quote]
       Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation,
       regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to
       make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed.
       Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick
       and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the
       monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee
       just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things
       like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.
       [/quote]
       That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He
       said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to
       determine the personal sanction.
       [/quote]
       I'm not convinced handball is a simple matter of fact.
       ...
       [/quote]
       Of course it isn't  ......  thanks to the pig's ear the
       governing bodies etc have made of the law and guidance,
       seemingly tacking on bits as they go along in attempt to justify
       the latest almighty error by their on-field officials and even
       worse by the VARs.
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