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#Post#: 44358--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: rustyref
Date: February 21, 2022, 11:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There was a lot of confusion when Koch eventually went off, it
was obviously assumed that Leeds would use a concussion sub but
they decided not to and rather used a standard sub. The
suggestion, which I would agree with, is that they didn't want
to give Man Utd a fourth sub as their bench was much stronger
than Leeds. Temporary subs would tend to make sense, but alas
that isn't what the clubs agreed on and therefore once off they
are off for good.
In terms of Paul Tierney, he did look a bit hesitant in the
first half but I think this was because he was trying to take
the conditions into account and was therefore a bit out of his
comfort zone. There were a couple of first half challenges that
I'm sure he would have cautioned for normally, but with players
sliding all over the place had he taken that approach he would
no doubt have been criticised for not using common sense,
especially as the conditions got even worse in the second half.
He finished with 9 cautions, had he carded early on that could
easily have been much higher as once you have set your bar you
can't really lower it.
#Post#: 44359--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: Carter
Date: February 21, 2022, 12:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> There was a lot of confusion when Koch eventually went off, it
was obviously assumed that Leeds would use a concussion sub but
they decided not to and rather used a standard sub. The
suggestion, which I would agree with, is that they didn't want
to give Man Utd a fourth sub as their bench was much stronger
than Leeds. Temporary subs would tend to make sense, but alas
that isn't what the clubs agreed on and therefore once off they
are off for good.
>
> In terms of Paul Tierney, he did look a bit hesitant in the
first half but I think this was because he was trying to take
the conditions into account and was therefore a bit out of his
comfort zone. There were a couple of first half challenges that
I'm sure he would have cautioned for normally, but with players
sliding all over the place had he taken that approach he would
no doubt have been criticised for not using common sense,
especially as the conditions got even worse in the second half.
He finished with 9 cautions, had he carded early on that could
easily have been much higher as once you have set your bar you
can't really lower it.
>
--- End Quote ---
My understanding is that you have to use the Concussion
Substitute at the first time the player is assessed, Leeds did
not as he was allowed Ridiculously back on the pitch.
As others have said temporary concission subs will most
certainly be miss used by all teams, to suit them.
#Post#: 44361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: rustyref
Date: February 21, 2022, 12:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Carter link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3391.msg44358#msg44358
date=1645464376]
> There was a lot of confusion when Koch eventually went off, it
was obviously assumed that Leeds would use a concussion sub but
they decided not to and rather used a standard sub. The
suggestion, which I would agree with, is that they didn't want
to give Man Utd a fourth sub as their bench was much stronger
than Leeds. Temporary subs would tend to make sense, but alas
that isn't what the clubs agreed on and therefore once off they
are off for good.
>
> In terms of Paul Tierney, he did look a bit hesitant in the
first half but I think this was because he was trying to take
the conditions into account and was therefore a bit out of his
comfort zone. There were a couple of first half challenges that
I'm sure he would have cautioned for normally, but with players
sliding all over the place had he taken that approach he would
no doubt have been criticised for not using common sense,
especially as the conditions got even worse in the second half.
He finished with 9 cautions, had he carded early on that could
easily have been much higher as once you have set your bar you
can't really lower it.
>
--- End Quote ---
My understanding is that you have to use the Concussion
Substitute at the first time the player is assessed, Leeds did
not as he was allowed Ridiculously back on the pitch.
As others have said temporary concission subs will most
certainly be miss used by all teams, to suit them.
[/quote]
Don't think so, Sky clarified that. Leeds could have used a
concussion sub when he eventually went off but they decided not
to. You could even see Mike Dean discussing it with them
holding the different substitution cards in his hand.
#Post#: 44384--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: February 21, 2022, 5:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Affy_Moose link=topic=3391.msg44338#msg44338
date=1645452267]
> I presume the problem is that clubs want ‘temporary’ subs
whilst a player is being concussion checked. Beyond the obvious
opportunity for dastardly behaviour, it’s not an unreasonable
law change.
>
--- End Quote ---
That would be more logical, imo. They play whilst the player
with the head injury is properly assessed and if he's fit to
return to the field then they come back off & if not they stay
on. One question is could they then still be used as a normal
substitution or would it rule out any further potential
involvement in the match? I guess also another potential problem
is what if a temporary concussion sub commits a red card offence
during those 15 mins? Obviously the result would be the team
down to 10 men but it would cause a reluctance for clubs to use
them.
[/quote]
Alternatively the temporary sub could have such an impact in
those 15 mins that the manager might not then want to take him
off and bring an assessed non-concussed player back on
(particularly if the manager has by then already used all his
subs). Would the referee insist that the non-concussed player
has to return?
#Post#: 44387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: RCG
Date: February 22, 2022, 1:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Why is football making it so complicated?
In rugby medical team plus independent doctor make assessment,
own team on pitch, doctor in stand. If either (or both)
determine HIA is required player leaves for 10 minutes to be
assessed and is replaced by a team mate, even if that player has
been subbed previously (specialist positions)
The "injured" player remains off the field for the whole 10 mins
even if they pass the assessment, then are free to return.
Should the sub do anything daft then sanctions apply as normal.
The independent doctor was brought in after an issue in Fra v
Wal.
Ultimately if the medics say a player needs to be checked, they
go off.
#Post#: 44389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: February 22, 2022, 2:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Which RCG is what I tried to say but not so well. Absolutely,
why so complicated? A rugby player can be taken off at any time
even while play continues. 15 minutes elapsed time (not playing
time) and if the player is not right he/she does not go back on.
The substitution is a permanent one and does not count as one of
your tactical substitutions. Of course it could be tactical. I
think Leeds were naughty, by not making a head injury
substitution the player can return for the next game! No
admission of concussion.....
Another change I would make in football is that players must be
rested from football activities for say 7 days so that clubs do
not try to argue that the player is fit to return because he/she
is so important. Moyes proved the point that a player has to do
something pretty awful before she/he is suspended especially if
that player is important to the team, or there are no other
players fit to cover him/her in their position, or the manager
feels his job under pressure to get results.
Note the use of independent medical doctor.
#Post#: 44390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 22, 2022, 3:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RCG link ---
>
> Why is football making it so complicated?
> In rugby medical team plus independent doctor make assessment,
own team on pitch, doctor in stand. If either (or both)
determine HIA is required player leaves for 10 minutes to be
assessed and is replaced by a team mate, even if that player has
been subbed previously (specialist positions)
> The "injured" player remains off the field for the whole 10
mins even if they pass the assessment, then are free to return.
> Should the sub do anything daft then sanctions apply as
normal.
> The independent doctor was brought in after an issue in Fra v
Wal.
> Ultimately if the medics say a player needs to be checked,
they go off.
>
--- End Quote ---
It all makes perfectly good sense to me...apart from one thing.
Why is the independent medic in the stand? Presumably s/he is
there to work and not spectate. I would have thought it sensible
for the independent medic to be pitchside also and therefore
eliminate any possible delay getting to the player.
to assist in the assessment process.
#Post#: 44394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: February 22, 2022, 4:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=RCG link=topic=3391.msg44387#msg44387
date=1645514023]
> Why is football making it so complicated?
> In rugby medical team plus independent doctor make assessment,
own team on pitch, doctor in stand. If either (or both)
determine HIA is required player leaves for 10 minutes to be
assessed and is replaced by a team mate, even if that player has
been subbed previously (specialist positions)
> The "injured" player remains off the field for the whole 10
mins even if they pass the assessment, then are free to return.
> Should the sub do anything daft then sanctions apply as
normal.
> The independent doctor was brought in after an issue in Fra v
Wal.
> Ultimately if the medics say a player needs to be checked,
they go off.
>
--- End Quote ---
It all makes perfectly good sense to me...apart from one thing.
Why is the independent medic in the stand? Presumably s/he is
there to work and not spectate. I would have thought it sensible
for the independent medic to be pitchside also and therefore
eliminate any possible delay getting to the player.
to assist in the assessment process.
[/quote]
In rugby union the independent doctor sits with a Matchday
Pitchside Video Reviewer. They have access to all the video
feeds and are able to determine whether head injury assessments
are required for incidents that may have been missed in
real-time (rugby players being more likely not to notice a bang
to the head in general play than the average dying-swan prone
footballer).
#Post#: 44402--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds v Man Utd- Paul Tierney
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 22, 2022, 5:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree that they should move in the direction of temporary
substitutions and independent medical assessments (where
resources allow this.)
I get the argument that they might be misused but player safety
should take priority. In some cases, it could also be a
deterrent for players feigning injury, due to possibility they
might be ordered to take an independent assessment and miss 10
or 15 minutes.
I suppose time-wasting would be one obvious way the system could
be abused but bringing in reforms, such as independent
timekeeping, to deal with that would also help. Also, for a team
to misuse the system it would in part need a player to
essentially voluntarily go off when there was nothing really
wrong with them and I'm sure many players wouldn't be willing to
do that.
If the temporary sub got sent off, and the original player was
declared fit to return, I'd suggest the team would continue down
to 10 men but they could bring the assessed player on for
another of the 10 if they wished.
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