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#Post#: 42866--------------------------------------------------
Re: A MARRINER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL
DIR By: nemesis
Date: January 13, 2022, 11:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> To be clear, aside from offsides they don't let play continue
and let VAR decide. Andre Marriner will get two incorrect KMIs
from last night as VAR correcting your decision doesn't count
with the observation. VAR protocols say it can only get
involved after the match referee has made a decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you mean after he stops play? A decision to play on is still
very much a decision.
#Post#: 42868--------------------------------------------------
Re: A MARRINER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL
DIR By: rustyref
Date: January 13, 2022, 12:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3280.msg42864#msg42864
date=1642095437]
> To be clear, aside from offsides they don't let play continue
and let VAR decide. Andre Marriner will get two incorrect KMIs
from last night as VAR correcting your decision doesn't count
with the observation. VAR protocols say it can only get
involved after the match referee has made a decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you mean after he stops play? A decision to play on is still
very much a decision.
[/quote]
No, once the incident has happened and the referee has or hasn't
stopped play VAR can get involved. The specific text relating
to this is below ...
The referee must always make a decision, i.e. the referee is not
permitted to give ‘no decision’ and then use the VAR to make the
decision; a decision to allow play to continue after an alleged
offence can be reviewed.
#Post#: 42881--------------------------------------------------
Re: A MARRINER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL
DIR By: nemesis
Date: January 13, 2022, 4:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=3280.msg42866#msg42866
date=1642095547]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3280.msg42864#msg42864
date=1642095437]
> To be clear, aside from offsides they don't let play continue
and let VAR decide. Andre Marriner will get two incorrect KMIs
from last night as VAR correcting your decision doesn't count
with the observation. VAR protocols say it can only get
involved after the match referee has made a decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you mean after he stops play? A decision to play on is still
very much a decision.
[/quote]
No, once the incident has happened and the referee has or hasn't
stopped play VAR can get involved. The specific text relating
to this is below ...
The referee must always make a decision, i.e. the referee is not
permitted to give ‘no decision’ and then use the VAR to make the
decision; a decision to allow play to continue after an alleged
offence can be reviewed.
[/quote]
Thanks. I'm curious. How does VAR (or anyone else) differentiate
between a decision not to award a foul and a "no decision".
#Post#: 42887--------------------------------------------------
Re: A MARRINER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: January 14, 2022, 4:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3280.msg42868#msg42868
date=1642098420]
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=3280.msg42866#msg42866
date=1642095547]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3280.msg42864#msg42864
date=1642095437]
> To be clear, aside from offsides they don't let play continue
and let VAR decide. Andre Marriner will get two incorrect KMIs
from last night as VAR correcting your decision doesn't count
with the observation. VAR protocols say it can only get
involved after the match referee has made a decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you mean after he stops play? A decision to play on is still
very much a decision.
[/quote]
No, once the incident has happened and the referee has or hasn't
stopped play VAR can get involved. The specific text relating
to this is below ...
The referee must always make a decision, i.e. the referee is not
permitted to give ‘no decision’ and then use the VAR to make the
decision; a decision to allow play to continue after an alleged
offence can be reviewed.
[/quote]
Thanks. I'm curious. How does VAR (or anyone else) differentiate
between a decision not to award a foul and a "no decision".
[/quote]
I suppose there's two points to this. The first is that it
doesn't matter since the result is the same.
The second is that VAR may recommend a review where a referee
inputs nothing in respect to an incident, but will not recommend
a review if the referee states "I saw xyz". That's despite the
initial outcomes being identical.
As we have seen recently with overly non-intrusive VAR reviews,
if a referee states they saw an incident but didn't judge it to
be a foul, the threshold for VAR review is much higher than if
they missed it/saw nothing. That is the correct approach,
irrespective of where you put the bar for intervention. Right
now the bar is too high, but the logic doesn't change if you
move its position.
"Clear and obvious" has a clearly defined meaning as per PGMOL.
It doesn't mean whatever pundits think it should or want it to,
in the same way that "gaining an advantage" in Law 11 is
defined, and doesn't allow for layman interpretation.
So, "clear and obvious" has a much lower threshold for review if
a referee makes no decision, in comparison to a referee
inputting they've made a 'decision' to do nothing. Either way,
being over-ruled will be judged as a KMI, however, the chances
of getting a 7.9 are going to not only be much higher if a
referees make a "decision by omission", but also (as pointed out
above) it is totally at odds to the Laws and their training.
#Post#: 42892--------------------------------------------------
Re: A MARRINER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 14, 2022, 6:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3280.msg42868#msg42868
date=1642098420]
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=3280.msg42866#msg42866
date=1642095547]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3280.msg42864#msg42864
date=1642095437]
> To be clear, aside from offsides they don't let play continue
and let VAR decide. Andre Marriner will get two incorrect KMIs
from last night as VAR correcting your decision doesn't count
with the observation. VAR protocols say it can only get
involved after the match referee has made a decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you mean after he stops play? A decision to play on is still
very much a decision.
[/quote]
No, once the incident has happened and the referee has or hasn't
stopped play VAR can get involved. The specific text relating
to this is below ...
The referee must always make a decision, i.e. the referee is not
permitted to give ‘no decision’ and then use the VAR to make the
decision; a decision to allow play to continue after an alleged
offence can be reviewed.
[/quote]
Thanks. I'm curious. How does VAR (or anyone else) differentiate
between a decision not to award a foul and a "no decision".
[/quote]
I guess the point is that if there is something like a penalty
appeal and the referee doesn't award a penalty then their
decision is taken as no penalty - so the VAR would need to
determine that no penalty was a clear and obvious error to
intervene.
The referee's not allowed to stay neutral and say 'I'm 50/50 so
we'll give whatever you think is best decision'.
Whether that is always fully how it operates is another matter
of course!
I agree with Ref Watcher that it's important referees give
decisions as they previously would have done as much as
possible, so they aren't overly relying on VAR to make the
decision or bail them out. Of course if it shouldn't be a
penalty you'd ideally not want the referee to award a penalty
initially but if it was that simple we wouldn't have VAR!
#Post#: 42893--------------------------------------------------
Re: A MARRINER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 14, 2022, 7:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[attach=1]
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> To be clear, aside from offsides they don't let play continue
and let VAR decide. Andre Marriner will get two incorrect KMIs
from last night as VAR correcting your decision doesn't count
with the observation. VAR protocols say it can only get
involved after the match referee has made a decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
Even for offsides, I don't think they should let VAR decide.
They are encouraged to let play continue in some circumstances
but the assistant must always raise the flag if they believe it
to be offside, either straight away or once the attacking move
has broken down.
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