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#Post#: 42706--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: January 11, 2022, 2:57 am
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The problem with the modern game is that you are never quite
sure what you are going to get in terms of the threshold for
fouls. International games, league games or cup games, there
appears to be varying thresholds for offences, the ones where
VAR cannot be used. Consistency has not been achieved although I
accept my view is one that is hard to back up with evidence.
As for putting arm around players? If it were Manchester United
v Cambridge, think what Cambridge players would think if the
referee put an arm around a Manchester player, a player the
referee probably knows very well. I could just accept putting an
arm around a player from either side to defuse a 1:1
confrontation but even so I would rather not see it. Players
cannot touch referees and the converse should be true.
As for VAR? The length of time taken is perhaps understandable
but what about the communication with fans? As for the integrity
of the competition, why was VAR even used? Villa may then have
got something out of the game which they contributed to in a
positive way.
#Post#: 42707--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 11, 2022, 3:51 am
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This is what I don't understand. The on-field referee Oliver
awarded the Villa goal, he did not rule it out for an
infringement. I thought VAR was to be used to correct a clear
and obvious error. VAR then took over three and a half minutes
to come to a conclusion and instruct Oliver to go to a monitor.
I submit, even accepting that VAR was looking at multiple
issues, that if it takes three and a half minutes it cannot have
been an error that was 'clear and obvious'
There is a general drift here of refereeing matches by VAR, the
immediate decisions of the on-field referee counting for less
and less. It is completely changing the dynamic of match
officiating and I deplore it.
I note there has been much discussion on RTR about VAR only
being used in some matches in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup. I
don't always agree with Alan Shearer on matters but his comments
last night saying that it should be at all or none I heartily
endorse. Equality under the law is a foundational principle of
justice. Having VAR at some matches and not others means that
they are being adjudicated in quite different ways. it is
unjust.
#Post#: 42708--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Hendo
Date: January 11, 2022, 4:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> This is what I don't understand. The on-field referee Oliver
awarded the Villa goal, he did not rule it out for an
infringement. I thought VAR was to be used to correct a clear
and obvious error. VAR then took over three and a half minutes
to come to a conclusion and instruct Oliver to go to a monitor.
I submit, even accepting that VAR was looking at multiple
issues, that if it takes three and a half minutes it cannot have
been an error that was 'clear and obvious'
>
> There is a general drift here of refereeing matches by VAR,
the immediate decisions of the on-field referee counting for
less and less. It is completely changing the dynamic of match
officiating and I deplore it.
>
> I note there has been much discussion on RTR about VAR only
being used in some matches in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup. I
don't always agree with Alan Shearer on matters but his comments
last night saying that it should be at all or none I heartily
endorse. Equality under the law is a foundational principle of
justice. Having VAR at some matches and not others means that
they are being adjudicated in quite different ways. it is
unjust.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hear, hear, excellent post Whistleblower.
#Post#: 42709--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Ref25
Date: January 11, 2022, 4:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I didn’t watch the whole match and have only seen the incident
in isolation. In my opinion, it is clearly an offside offence
against Ramsey and the correct decision has been given.
> Ramsey is in an offside position when the ball is kicked.
> Ramsey looks straight at Cavani and puts his arms into him /
blocks Cavani’s path (I actually think it’s probably a direct
free kick offence for blocking, but that is debatable). He makes
a movement towards Cavani.
> Cavani is clearly tracking back to cover the other Aston Villa
player who heads the ball from the free kick.
> At the point the free kick is taken, Cavani is about one yard
closer to the goal line than the Aston Villa player who heads
the ball. It is reasonable to assume Cavani would be able to
challenge for the ball had Ramsey not done what he did.
Why the long VAR check? 3:36 according to the pundits. As has
been said, the officials have to look at a lot of things here:
Is it an offside offence by Ramsey?
Is it a foul (block) by Ramsey?
Is there an offside offence by the goal scorer (i.e. was the
ball touched on after the header)?
Is it handball by the goal scorer?
I’m not sure it is good enough just to stop at the first one and
not look at the other potential offences. Whilst I think it is
clear, it is nonetheless a matter of interpretation whether
Ramsey has interfered with an opponent and perhaps an on field
review is appropriate.
What if the referee says ‘No, I don’t think he has interfered
with the opponent’ and VAR hasn’t checked everything else? Do
they say “hold on, we’ve got to check some other things” and
tell the referee to stand by the monitor for a bit? That would
look awful.
Maybe VAR said ‘we think it’s a clear block by Ramsey and we are
recommending an on field review for a foul but there is also a
question of offside if not enough for a block’. The referee may
have said ‘not a foul for me but enough for interfering with an
opponent and offside’.
I think a lot is being made out of this when there isn’t much
there. The right decision has been reached and with four
potential offences to look at, the VAR check isn’t excessively
long at 3:36.
#Post#: 42711--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: January 11, 2022, 4:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In rugby, the TMO has often focussed on one incident and missed
another, more important and material incident. This has led to
howlers and so it is right that time is taken to review the
situation. Rugby has tried to playback to the crowd discussions
between TMO and the referee. Not sure if football could learn
anything. In fact note sure if it works for rugby but the crowd
which is increasingly being disenfranchised deserves better.
#Post#: 42712--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 11, 2022, 5:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref25 link ---
>
> I didn’t watch the whole match and have only seen the incident
in isolation. In my opinion, it is clearly an offside offence
against Ramsey and the correct decision has been given.
>
> > Ramsey is in an offside position when the ball is kicked.
> > Ramsey looks straight at Cavani and puts his arms into him /
blocks Cavani’s path (I actually think it’s probably a direct
free kick offence for blocking, but that is debatable). He makes
a movement towards Cavani.
> > Cavani is clearly tracking back to cover the other Aston
Villa player who heads the ball from the free kick.
> > At the point the free kick is taken, Cavani is about one
yard closer to the goal line than the Aston Villa player who
heads the ball. It is reasonable to assume Cavani would be able
to challenge for the ball had Ramsey not done what he did.
>
> Why the long VAR check? 3:36 according to the pundits. As has
been said, the officials have to look at a lot of things here:
>
> Is it an offside offence by Ramsey?
> Is it a foul (block) by Ramsey?
> Is there an offside offence by the goal scorer (i.e. was the
ball touched on after the header)?
> Is it handball by the goal scorer?
>
> I’m not sure it is good enough just to stop at the first one
and not look at the other potential offences. Whilst I think it
is clear, it is nonetheless a matter of interpretation whether
Ramsey has interfered with an opponent and perhaps an on field
review is appropriate.
>
> What if the referee says ‘No, I don’t think he has interfered
with the opponent’ and VAR hasn’t checked everything else? Do
they say “hold on, we’ve got to check some other things” and
tell the referee to stand by the monitor for a bit? That would
look awful.
>
> Maybe VAR said ‘we think it’s a clear block by Ramsey and we
are recommending an on field review for a foul but there is also
a question of offside if not enough for a block’. The referee
may have said ‘not a foul for me but enough for interfering with
an opponent and offside’.
>
> I think a lot is being made out of this when there isn’t much
there. The right decision has been reached and with four
potential offences to look at, the VAR check isn’t excessively
long at 3:36.
>
--- End Quote ---
An excellent post, if I may say so Ref25 even though I do not
concur with it. I remain unconvinced that the 'clear and
obvious' threshold has been met ( presuming 'clear and obvious'
is still the protocol; it may have changed to allow even more
scope for VAR to referee matches ) and I stand absolutely by my
assertion that for VAR to be employed at some matches and not
others is fundamentally inequitable.
#Post#: 42713--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Seagull
Date: January 11, 2022, 5:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Surely, this is a prime example of why it would be useful to be
allowed to hear the discussion between the on-field Referee and
the VAR. Whether we agree or disagree with the final decision,
at least everybody would know WHY the goal was disallowed,
rather than have all this speculation and guesswork.
#Post#: 42714--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 11, 2022, 6:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Seagull link ---
>
> Surely, this is a prime example of why it would be useful to
be allowed to hear the discussion between the on-field Referee
and the VAR. Whether we agree or disagree with the final
decision, at least everybody would know WHY the goal was
disallowed, rather than have all this speculation and guesswork.
>
--- End Quote ---
If we are going down the route of VAR officiating at matches ( I
don't like it but I suspect this is a one way street ) then why
not follow a lead from American Football where the Officiating
Crew will deliberate about a certain passage of play leading to
a decision, arrive at their conclusion and then explain it
through a microphone to the crowd. I have been to such matches
and the system seems to work well. Admittedly in American
Football there are lots of phases of play with pauses in between
but that is exactly how Association Football is going to end up
with increasing use of VAR. Therefore if the authorities are
inventing a "new" game, or at least officiated in a new way,
then good communication with the audience would seem most
desirable.
#Post#: 42715--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: Seagull
Date: January 11, 2022, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=Seagull link=topic=3270.msg42713#msg42713
date=1641900082]
> Surely, this is a prime example of why it would be useful to
be allowed to hear the discussion between the on-field Referee
and the VAR. Whether we agree or disagree with the final
decision, at least everybody would know WHY the goal was
disallowed, rather than have all this speculation and guesswork.
>
--- End Quote ---
If we are going down the route of VAR officiating at matches ( I
don't like it but I suspect this is a one way street ) then why
not follow a lead from American Football where the Officiating
Crew will deliberate about a certain passage of play leading to
a decision, arrive at their conclusion and then explain it
through a microphone to the crowd. I have been to such matches
and the system seems to work well. Admittedly in American
Football there are lots of phases of play with pauses in between
but that is exactly how Association Football is going to end up
with increasing use of VAR. Therefore if the authorities are
inventing a "new" game, or at least officiated in a new way,
then good communication with the audience would seem most
desirable.
[/quote]
I think any final decision needs to remain with the on-field
Referee based on information from VAR but if, in this instance,
we'd been privy to the discussion between Messrs. Oliver and
England followed by Mr. Oliver's explanation to the players, we
would all have been in a better position.
#Post#: 42716--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
DIR By: ajb95
Date: January 11, 2022, 6:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Having watched the highlights and the incident again in more
detail I agree with the poster that it is quite clearly offside,
and quite rightly given. The question of the length of the
review is still unanswered as the only part worth looking at was
the Ramsey/cavani incident.
Not sure why our top referee and assistant (Stuart burt?)
couldn’t have come to the decision themselves as Ramsey is
clearly offside when the ball comes in.
Not sure why anyone is listening to pundits like shearer and
Richards who clearly don’t know the laws, even waffling on to a
totally different issue during an answer despite lineker reading
out the wording of the law.
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