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       #Post#: 41287--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: Affy_Moose
       Date: December 16, 2021, 4:51 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
       >
       > As some seem to set great store on Mr Clattenburg's opinions,
       here are his views.  Using Whistleblower's analogy, I would
       never claim to be a Lead Counsel on behalf of MC as a referee
       and therefore I personally attach no special significance to his
       remarks now. Whether Messrs Gallagher and the seemingly
       unpopular Hackett would agree with him I don't know.
       >
       >
  HTML https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10314777/MARK-CLATTENBURG-Penalty-West-Ham-red-card-against-Arsenal-plain-wrong.html
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I have wondered for a few years what the point of My Clattenburg
       is.
       He thought the Mane red card against Man City in 2017 was wrong.
       For that claim alone, I have very little time for his input.
       Quite incredible considering the career he had.
  HTML https://metro.co.uk/2017/09/09/sadio-mane-should-not-have-been-sent-off-against-manchester-city-says-mark-clattenburg-6914979/
       #Post#: 41288--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: ARF
       Date: December 16, 2021, 6:20 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       It's as clear a penalty as I've seen all season - he rolls over
       the top of the ball and kicks the attacker mid-to-high shin.
       Unsure whether I think it's a caution or not, but I simply
       cannot believe there are referees out there that disagree that
       this is a foul.
       #Post#: 41291--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: Ashington46
       Date: December 16, 2021, 6:46 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Proof, if proof were needed, that the least important thing in
       modern football is the ball. They should just get rid of it all
       together and the players will then be safe to run around.
       Actually, in this super-duper digital age, could  they not use a
       virtual ball?
       #Post#: 41293--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: Affy_Moose
       Date: December 16, 2021, 7:15 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: ARF link ---
       >
       > It's as clear a penalty as I've seen all season - he rolls
       over the top of the ball and kicks the attacker mid-to-high
       shin. Unsure whether I think it's a caution or not, but I simply
       cannot believe there are referees out there that disagree that
       this is a foul.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I think that's overstating the case somewhat...  It doesn't take
       any imagination to make it a foul, but I can absolutely
       appreciate this splitting an audience of experienced officials.
       #Post#: 41301--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: Microscopist
       Date: December 16, 2021, 9:29 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: bmb link ---
       >
       > [quote author=PhiltheRef link=topic=3174.msg41279#msg41279
       date=1639614597]
       > but doubtless I will be given heaps and accused of defending a
       mate (not that he needs defending btw)
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       IMO, your opinion is as valid as anyone else's, mate or not. I
       get a few of the very boring "you're just defending your mate"
       comments along with a few of "you're only slating him cos you
       don't like him" ones! They're pathetic & tiresome but just do
       what I do and laugh at them!
       [/quote]
       The unbiased observer in my view lives in the same stable as the
       unicorn.  Everyone of us has their views tailored by our own
       make-up and life experiences.  Whistleblower speaks of advocates
       for the defence and prosecution and presumably they are part of
       the judicial process so that more than one side of the story is
       heard.  We should welcome the views of those see things
       differently - challenge their conclusions if we think their
       evidence is weak, but be prepared to reflect on them.  Always,
       however, trying to follow DublinRef's intent to play the ball
       and not the man.
       #Post#: 41304--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: Readingfan
       Date: December 16, 2021, 10:29 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Dale Johnson on twitter says Anthony Taylor told Peter Bankes
       he'd seen a touch on the ball but felt challenge was reckless.
       Apparently this limited scope for VAR involvement as Taylor had
       been accurate with description of factual element and the rest
       was quite subjective. If Taylor had missed touch on the ball
       then more likely VAR might have recommended a review.
       #Post#: 41306--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: Whistleblower
       Date: December 16, 2021, 10:34 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
       >
       > [quote author=bmb link=topic=3174.msg41280#msg41280
       date=1639625287]
       > [quote author=PhiltheRef link=topic=3174.msg41279#msg41279
       date=1639614597]
       > but doubtless I will be given heaps and accused of defending a
       mate (not that he needs defending btw)
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       IMO, your opinion is as valid as anyone else's, mate or not. I
       get a few of the very boring "you're just defending your mate"
       comments along with a few of "you're only slating him cos you
       don't like him" ones! They're pathetic & tiresome but just do
       what I do and laugh at them!
       [/quote]
       The unbiased observer in my view lives in the same stable as the
       unicorn.  Everyone of us has their views tailored by our own
       make-up and life experiences.  Whistleblower speaks of advocates
       for the defence and prosecution and presumably they are part of
       the judicial process so that more than one side of the story is
       heard.  We should welcome the views of those see things
       differently - challenge their conclusions if we think their
       evidence is weak, but be prepared to reflect on them.  Always,
       however, trying to follow DublinRef's intent to play the ball
       and not the man.
       [/quote]
       It's a very interesting question whether any of us can ever be
       unbiased in our observations. I certainly believe that when I
       see a new referee, as I did Benjamin Speedie last Saturday, I am
       unaware of any bias but I have done enough unconscious bias
       training to know that may well not be the truth. For instance, I
       will have read other people's views about Speedie on RTR and
       although I don't remember the specifics I think I recall clear
       positivity and so I expected him to do well last Saturday. Also,
       if a style puts me in mind of a favourite referee ( as Samuel
       Barrott did recalling Joe Worrall ) then I am prepared to accept
       that will colour my judgement.
       #Post#: 41309--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: rustyref
       Date: December 16, 2021, 10:49 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
       >
       > Proof, if proof were needed, that the least important thing in
       modern football is the ball. They should just get rid of it all
       together and the players will then be safe to run around.
       > Actually, in this super-duper digital age, could  they not use
       a virtual ball?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       As Peter Walton right said, and I don't always find myself
       saying that, had Coufal got full contact on the ball and then
       his follow through catching Lacazette he would probably have got
       away with it.  It's the fact he glanced off the top of the ball
       and then hit Lacazette high on his leg, if he had won the ball
       cleanly that wouldn't have happened.  And to be fair that is
       exactly what Moyes said, he criticised Coufal for not tackling
       properly.
       #Post#: 41315--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: badref
       Date: December 16, 2021, 11:58 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Interesting that almost all of the opinions on this one are
       either in the camp of definitely a pen or definitely not a pen
       and nothing inbetween.
       I'm a West Ham fan and I'm actually still really undecided on
       this one. Different camera angles make me change my mind but I'm
       leaning towards no pen. I suspect in real time with no VAR most
       referees wouldn't give a penalty here.
       I did realise though that as soon as Taylor blew for it that VAR
       wouldn't (shouldn't?) be overturning it.
       Does he have to book him (send him off) once he's given it do we
       think?
       #Post#: 41316--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ATaylor - Arsenal v West Ham
   DIR By: ajb95
       Date: December 16, 2021, 12:06 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: badref link ---
       >
       > Interesting that almost all of the opinions on this one are
       either in the camp of definitely a pen or definitely not a pen
       and nothing inbetween.
       >
       > I'm a West Ham fan and I'm actually still really undecided on
       this one. Different camera angles make me change my mind but I'm
       leaning towards no pen. I suspect in real time with no VAR most
       referees wouldn't give a penalty here.
       >
       > I did realise though that as soon as Taylor blew for it that
       VAR wouldn't (shouldn't?) be overturning it.
       >
       > Does he have to book him (send him off) once he's given it do
       we think?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       No
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