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       #Post#: 41047--------------------------------------------------
       J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
       Date: December 11, 2021, 8:58 am
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       Haven’t seen any highlights but Wolves very upset by the penalty
       decision?
       #Post#: 41048--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: Critics
       Date: December 11, 2021, 10:05 am
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       The defender's arm raised beyond his shoulder level and the ball
       was blocked by the near part so in real-time it really looked
       like a handball. But replay showed that the ball probably hit
       his chest first and deflected to the raised arm. His arm was in
       an unnatural position and made himself bigger so the penalty
       decision initially by Moss IMO was supportable and VAR should
       not intervene.
       #Post#: 41049--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: Microscopist
       Date: December 11, 2021, 10:08 am
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       In my view this was an apology for a game of football and no
       team could take much credit from it -  City were lacked
       imagination, Wolves were pretty abysmal and the referee and VAR
       were awful.
       As I saw it a lot of fouls were ignored in the opening stages of
       the game, three possible penalties - I thought he got them all
       wrong, four "handballs" one probably correct and three probably
       wrong.
       After the opening period of ignoring fouls he decided to start
       throwing yellow cards around - possibly feeling that he was
       losing control which it seemed to me he was - the first yellow
       card - in isolation - could be justified although in the context
       of the decisions he had made up to that point seemed harsh.  The
       next yellow card for Rodri really shouldn't have been and set a
       very low threshold for yellow cards which meant a short while
       later a similar challenge on Rodri and Jimenez sees yellow
       (neither should have been yellow in my view) Jimenez foolishly
       refuses to retreat and moves to block the free kick and gets a
       second yellow - idiotic from Jiminez though his first yellow
       shouldn't have been.
       
       Handballs - first one against Jesus looked a little harsh but
       not absolutely incorrect, the second one on replay looked to hit
       Jesus on the chest/shoulder rather than the arm and I would say
       was incorrect.  The third one Grealish crosses, Wolves defender
       leans across to block the ball which hits his arm between the
       elbow and the bottom of his sleeve.  Arm not far away from his
       side but clear movement towards the ball - should be a penalty
       for me - particularly in the light of the previous handball
       against Jesus- not given should have been a penalty.  Fourth
       handball Moutinho raises an arm to block a cross the ball hits
       him on the chest / arm pit - didn't see any clear evidence that
       it had hit his raised arm first - in my view no penalty.
       So one of the worst games I've watched for a while and Mr Moss
       has to take some (but not all) of the responsibility for that.
       Maybe I'll look at some of the incidents again on City + TV
       tomorrow and change my mind on some of the decisions but that's
       how I see them at the moment.
       #Post#: 41050--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: guest320
       Date: December 11, 2021, 10:39 am
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       I was under the impression the current guideline state that if
       the ball deflects off another part of a players body and then
       onto the arm then that will not constitute a penalty. In which
       case VAR would have clear evidence to overturn the decision as
       the ball clearly hits his midriff/armpit first before deflecting
       onto the arm.
       Good and bad from Moss with the red card too. Great to see a
       referee finally book a player for stopping a free kick being
       taken quickly... but the first yellow 40 seconds before was one
       of the poorest decisions to issue a yellow you will ever see,
       and certainly seemed to be influenced into booking Jimenez by
       the Man City crowd/players because he had just booked a couple
       of city players in the few minutes before.
       #Post#: 41051--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: rustyref
       Date: December 11, 2021, 11:09 am
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       --- Quote from: chriswfc link ---
       >
       > I was under the impression the current guideline state that if
       the ball deflects off another part of a players body and then
       onto the arm then that will not constitute a penalty. In which
       case VAR would have clear evidence to overturn the decision as
       the ball clearly hits his midriff/armpit first before deflecting
       onto the arm.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Changed this year.  Up until last season it said ...
       [i]Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the
       ball touches a player’s hand/arm:
       • directly from the player’s own head or body (including
       the foot)[/I]
       That's gone this season, but wouldn't have been relevant last
       season.  That's because above that bullet point are the words "
       Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball
       touches a player’s hand/arm", and one of the above offences
       listed is if the hand or arm is above the shoulder level unless
       the player deliberately played the ball before it hit the arm.
       Would be a big push to say there was a deliberate play here.
       This season the handball law just says ...
       [i]It is an offence if a player:
       • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for
       example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
       • touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made
       their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have
       made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their
       hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the
       player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having
       their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of
       their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised[/I]
       There was no reason for his arm to be up there, so as the law
       says, he took a risk and got penalised.  I don't think the video
       was conclusive as to whether it hit his arm below the t-shirt
       line, but given this I don't really see how VAR could do
       anything other than stick with the onfield decision.
       #Post#: 41055--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: ajb95
       Date: December 11, 2021, 1:59 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Penalty right or wrong, I cannot for the life of me see how Moss
       has given that from his position. He is totally in the wrong
       place. he's too far left and deep in play. Would have been more
       of a decision for the linesman.
       Intersting that this is the referee and VAR combination who
       refereed the City v Southampton match in September and decided
       that Walker had not fouled Redmond after initially giving a
       penalty
       #Post#: 41056--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
       Date: December 11, 2021, 2:08 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The number of penalties given in the PL so far this weekend
       seems very high….
       #Post#: 41060--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: Readingfan
       Date: December 11, 2021, 2:45 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
       >
       > Penalty right or wrong, I cannot for the life of me see how
       Moss has given that from his position. He is totally in the
       wrong place. he's too far left and deep in play. Would have been
       more of a decision for the linesman.
       >
       > Intersting that this is the referee and VAR combination who
       refereed the City v Southampton match in September and decided
       that Walker had not fouled Redmond after initially giving a
       penalty
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Is it possible assistant contributed to penalty decision?
       Wasn't Atkinson VAR for Man City V Southampton match and
       Marriner VAR today?
       #Post#: 41063--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: Ref Fan
       Date: December 11, 2021, 4:16 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Quoting Microscopist.
       Fourth handball Moutinho raises an arm to block a cross the ball
       hits him on the chest / arm pit - didn't see any clear evidence
       that it had hit his raised arm first - in my view no penalty.
       It certainly looked to me that the ball initially went under the
       arm into the armpit/chest.  Was there clear evidence it then hit
       the raised arm as I didn't spot it?  One of the commentators
       thought VAR might ask the referee to check the monitor.  In that
       particular situation it seemed to me more likely that Moutinho
       was trying to get his arm out of the way, given the height and
       direction of the ball, than deliberately making his body bigger.
       
       #Post#: 41064--------------------------------------------------
       Re: J MOSS - Man City v Wolves
   DIR By: ajb95
       Date: December 11, 2021, 4:17 pm
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       It was a poor decision either way
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