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#Post#: 39393--------------------------------------------------
Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford v
Maidstone
DIR By: adcr85
Date: November 3, 2021, 5:57 am
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Apoloiges if I have missed this elsewhere, but a fun one from
last weekend - see below link to highlights
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhaLwDxLIOg&t=419s
First highlight to note is at 2:25ish - I will talk through it
before giving opinions -corner crossed in, headed down, a
striker has a shot from inside the goal area, is blocked by a
defender who is trying to stop the ball going in. Referee
imediately points to the spot, isolates the defender (who is
still sat on the floor where he blocked it) and he is shown the
red card. All seems pretty simple. UNTIL - the assistant coming
in from the corner taken side walks to chat with the referee and
informs him that the ball was already over the line before the
handball, therefore it is a goal. Referee then calls the
attacking teams captain over explains the situation which is
apparently accepted, then calls the 'dismissed' player over,
gives the 'cutting the grass symbol' (to nullify the red card)
and game then retarts with a kick off.
The second incident is at 6:20 and is a straight red card for a
tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent, and thus the
same player is shown the red card twice in the same match.
On the main first incident, the overarching thought in my
opinion is the ball didn't cross the line, the defender does
start slightly behind the line looking at his feet, but then
moves forward as the ball comes closer to him and at the point
it hits his arm he is from the only angle I have seen not a
whole ball behind the line (if that makes sense). My guess would
be the ref who has given the pen is probably getting a buzz from
his assistant but doesn't want to look away in case he loses the
defender and probably assumes the buss is the assistant who has
seen the same thing as him. I must also say that once he speaks
with the assistant I think the ref handles it well, he indicates
goal, then calls the captain over to explain (an underused
technique in my opinion) and I think to most people wathcing it
was clear what had happened. Just a pity I think that the
decison they came to was incorrect.
As for the second red card, jumping in with studs, opponent
makes a bit of it, but I think correct.
So anyone else red carded anyone twice, or wanted to? Could it
have been handled differently
#Post#: 39396--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: November 3, 2021, 6:34 am
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Ref shown on the appointments thread as Ross Martin. I thought
he did well in both instances. The AR on the nearside had to be
in line as the header came in from the corner, and I have to say
it did look over the line. The straight red might have been on
the borders of red and yellow (difficult to say from the clip
although replayed), but full marks to Ross in my view for taking
the action he did rather than settling for a yellow.
#Post#: 39399--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: GingerReferee
Date: November 3, 2021, 7:29 am
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--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> Ref shown on the appointments thread as Ross Martin. I thought
he did well in both instances. The AR on the nearside had to be
in line as the header came in from the corner, and I have to say
it did look over the line. The straight red might have been on
the borders of red and yellow (difficult to say from the clip
although replayed), but full marks to Ross in my view for taking
the action he did rather than settling for a yellow.
>
--- End Quote ---
Totally agree, think he handled both situations well, 1st one is
a red card until the lino says it went in. Handled it well so
the captains/players couldn't moan.
2nd one, again, like you said, 50/50. I would go yellow but
either is acceptable, didn't take any crap from the players.
Overall, a great confident referee who is going places
#Post#: 39416--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: Arbitre anglais
Date: November 3, 2021, 2:30 pm
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Problem can also be that refs now have to give the card so
quickly or else the player will ‘disappear’ or within a second
the ref is surrounded by players. See it with the tackle later -
can’t even get to the offender and struggle to get card out
because players all around the ref.
In theory, if not a RC for handball, it has to be a YC -
specifically covered in law, but seems to be ignored even at top
level:
“handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (whether or not
the attempt is successful) or in an unsuccessful attempt to
prevent a goal”
For the tackle, I hope the GK also got a YC for sprinting 40
yards to get in the face of the referee.
Thought ref handled very well - calm and clear communication.
#Post#: 39421--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: ARF
Date: November 3, 2021, 3:55 pm
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I'm really struggling to see how that tackle is a red card
personally - he's not coming in at speed, doesn't appear to
leave the floor at any point, tackle is one-footed, low, and
there appears to be a small amount of contact with the opponent
on the follow-through. Caution at most IMO, but the opponent
jumps three feet in the air and acts like he's been shot, and it
gets the player sent off.
However, aside from disagreeing with that judgement call (with
the benefit of replays!), I think the referee handled both
incidents well.
--- Quote from: Arbitre anglais link ---
>
> In theory, if not a RC for handball, it has to be a YC -
specifically covered in law, but seems to be ignored even at top
level:
>
> “handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (whether or
not the attempt is successful) or in an unsuccessful attempt to
prevent a goal”
>
--- End Quote ---
While I would probably give a caution in this scenario, I think
there is an argument that a caution is not absolutely mandatory
here, as (according to the AR) the goal has already been scored
by the time the defender handles it. You could interpret "an
unsuccessful attempt to prevent a goal" meaning a situation
where the defender handles it and then the ball enters the net.
#Post#: 39436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: Leggy
Date: November 4, 2021, 3:24 am
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I believe that a caution for the "handball scenario" is
appropriate here.
Whilst the attempt was unsuccessful because - according to the
AR - the ball had already entered the goal, the offending player
clearly did not know that. If he had, there would have been no
attempt to handle it.
The offending players intentions are clear: To illegally
prevent the ball from entering the goal. If he had been
successful he would have received a red card. As he was not
successful he should receive a yellow card. His (in)competence
in breaking the Laws of the game should not really save him from
sanction.
#Post#: 39438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: nemesis
Date: November 4, 2021, 4:38 am
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> I believe that a caution for the "handball scenario" is
appropriate here.
>
> Whilst the attempt was unsuccessful because - according to the
AR - the ball had already entered the goal, the offending player
clearly did not know that. If he had, there would have been no
attempt to handle it.
>
> The offending players intentions are clear: To illegally
prevent the ball from entering the goal. If he had been
successful he would have received a red card. As he was not
successful he should receive a yellow card. His (in)competence
in breaking the Laws of the game should not really save him from
sanction.
>
--- End Quote ---
Why on earth would anyone want to show a yellow card in this
situation. It's not like a pre-meditated reach out for the ball
or a tip over the bar. He's just tried to put his body in the
way of the ball and it's struck his arm in an entirely natural
position (no defence of course for a red card if it stops a
goal). You could certainly make a case that he hasn't handled
the ball as it's out of play having already crossed the line.
Having got to where he did, the referee handled things well.
Although I'm sure my first reaction would have been to glance
across to the Assistant who I'd hope would be flagging already.
He doesn't seem to do this and we don't know whether the
Assistant flagged immediately. Ideally look across, signal goal
and run back and no need for any card activity.
Actual red card on the harsh side, but defensible.
#Post#: 39441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: RefObserver
Date: November 4, 2021, 4:54 am
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[/quote]
Having got to where he did, the referee handled things well.
Although I'm sure my first reaction would have been to glance
across to the Assistant who I'd hope would be flagging already.
He doesn't seem to do this and we don't know whether the
Assistant flagged immediately. Ideally look across, signal goal
and run back and no need for any card activity.
[/quote]
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nss0RqSzG6s
For clarity, first action on here - the AR flags as (or just
before) the whistle to indicate a goal.
#Post#: 39442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: November 4, 2021, 5:04 am
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> I believe that a caution for the "handball scenario" is
appropriate here.
>
> Whilst the attempt was unsuccessful because - according to the
AR - the ball had already entered the goal, the offending player
clearly did not know that. If he had, there would have been no
attempt to handle it.
>
> The offending players intentions are clear: To illegally
prevent the ball from entering the goal. If he had been
successful he would have received a red card. As he was not
successful he should receive a yellow card. His (in)competence
in breaking the Laws of the game should not really save him from
sanction.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can't agree with this. A yellow card in this scenario would
be the same as a yellow card for a handball on the line as the
referee whistles for a free kick to the defending team for a
foul. The ball is dead. There is no case to answer.
#Post#: 39443--------------------------------------------------
Re: Same Player red carded twice in the same match - Hungerford
v Maidstone
DIR By: Leggy
Date: November 4, 2021, 5:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Watcher link ---
>
> [quote author=Leggy link=topic=3013.msg39436#msg39436
date=1636014277]
> I believe that a caution for the "handball scenario" is
appropriate here.
>
> Whilst the attempt was unsuccessful because - according to the
AR - the ball had already entered the goal, the offending player
clearly did not know that. If he had, there would have been no
attempt to handle it.
>
> The offending players intentions are clear: To illegally
prevent the ball from entering the goal. If he had been
successful he would have received a red card. As he was not
successful he should receive a yellow card. His (in)competence
in breaking the Laws of the game should not really save him from
sanction.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can't agree with this. A yellow card in this scenario would
be the same as a yellow card for a handball on the line as the
referee whistles for a free kick to the defending team for a
foul. The ball is dead. There is no case to answer.
[/quote]
I was not aware that the ball being out of play (dead) negated
the ability for a referee to punish unsporting behaviour?
Attempting, but failing, to prevent the ball going into the goal
is pretty unsporting in my book (which is where his name would
have ended up :)).
I note Nemesis' comment about there not being an offence at all
and agree that - had that been the case - no card of any colour
would have been necessary. The referee on the day, however, saw
an offence. I do not think the Assistant Referee advised that
no offence had taken place. He intervened to provide advice on
the sanction and restart of play - given his ruling that the
ball was out of (as opposed to in) play when the offence took
place.
It is an academic argument in any case as the player
subsequently and correctly saw red for a poor challenge.
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