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#Post#: 38608--------------------------------------------------
A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: October 13, 2021, 2:41 am
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I suspect there will be comment on the crowd trouble at last
night's game. However, I ought to say now that I thought the
Spanish referee Hernandez had a good game. Hungary penalty was
correct although I've seen them not given, Hernandez did not
fall for any of the diving from players of both sides, he looked
fit and was up with play, and he stayed in the background,
allowing the players to make their various contributions to what
was a thoroughly entertaining game with a fair result. I suspect
Hernandez is not Spain's No 1 ref, but he and his team acquitted
themselves well last night. Well done!
#Post#: 38609--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: DBLTFC
Date: October 13, 2021, 3:16 am
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Is there not a case for an indirect free kick rather than a
penalty?
#Post#: 38610--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: ARF
Date: October 13, 2021, 3:35 am
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--- Quote from: DBLTFC link ---
>
> Is there not a case for an indirect free kick rather than a
penalty?
>
--- End Quote ---
From the clip I've seen, I think there is contact but I can't
tell for certain. Referee obviously thought there was, so to my
mind VAR would need to clearly show there wasn't contact in
order to recommend a review to give an indirect free kick
instead of the penalty.
#Post#: 38612--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: Leggy
Date: October 13, 2021, 4:43 am
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--- Quote from: ARF link ---
>
> [quote author=DBLTFC link=topic=2955.msg38609#msg38609
date=1634112997]
> Is there not a case for an indirect free kick rather than a
penalty?
>
--- End Quote ---
From the clip I've seen, I think there is contact but I can't
tell for certain. Referee obviously thought there was, so to my
mind VAR would need to clearly show there wasn't contact in
order to recommend a review to give an indirect free kick
instead of the penalty.
[/quote]
I do not believe there was contact, but VAR may not have been
able to prove that to overrule.
The over-exaggerated player reaction made up the referees' mind
though as he appeared not to be going to initially whistle, only
doing so when he believed the Hungarian player was badly
injured. He was not, of course; and having secured the penalty
(probably unjustified) and the yellow card (entirely
unjustified) made a full and speedy recovery.
Job (deception?) done and goal scored. No England player can
complain though, because they would have done the same and there
will probably be examples of them doing the same this weekend
......
#Post#: 38615--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: Mikael W
Date: October 13, 2021, 6:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I wrote an analysis as to why awarding the penalty (clip:
streamable.com/puw10a) was the wrong decision:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/gAzf4ve
---
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> I suspect there will be comment on the crowd trouble at last
night's game. However, I ought to say now that I thought the
Spanish referee Hernandez had a good game. Hungary penalty was
correct although I've seen them not given, Hernandez did not
fall for any of the diving from players of both sides, he looked
fit and was up with play, and he stayed in the background,
allowing the players to make their various contributions to what
was a thoroughly entertaining game with a fair result. I suspect
Hernandez is not Spain's No 1 ref, but he and his team acquitted
themselves well last night. Well done!
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for this report, I wanted to watch the game but wasn't
able to - you described his style very well. :)
Hernández Hernández isn't even in the Elite category yet, but I
really like him as a ref and think he has high potential. His
last UEFA game went really well - very challenging setting with
a big observer (Fenerbahçe vs. Olympiakós; Rizzoli) - and in
case of a good performance last night, he is increasing his
arguments all the while to get a (IMO deserved) CL debut this
season.
#Post#: 38616--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: dave26
Date: October 13, 2021, 6:38 am
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I absolutely 100% agree with the Hungarian penalty as plenty of
times incidents occur in the penalty area and nothing is given
and people say anywhere else on the field that is a Free Kick ,
the incident for the penalty would be a FK anywhere else on the
field therefore in this case a penalty is spot on
As for the rest of game I thought he was very good aswell for
the reasons stated by someone else in a earlier post
#Post#: 38620--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: Leggy
Date: October 13, 2021, 7:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mikael W link ---
>
> I wrote an analysis as to why awarding the penalty (clip:
streamable.com/puw10a) was the wrong decision:
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/a/gAzf4ve
>
> ---
>
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=2955.msg38608#msg38608
date=1634110889]
> I suspect there will be comment on the crowd trouble at last
night's game. However, I ought to say now that I thought the
Spanish referee Hernandez had a good game. Hungary penalty was
correct although I've seen them not given, Hernandez did not
fall for any of the diving from players of both sides, he looked
fit and was up with play, and he stayed in the background,
allowing the players to make their various contributions to what
was a thoroughly entertaining game with a fair result. I suspect
Hernandez is not Spain's No 1 ref, but he and his team acquitted
themselves well last night. Well done!
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for this report, I wanted to watch the game but wasn't
able to - you described his style very well. :)
Hernández Hernández isn't even in the Elite category yet, but I
really like him as a ref and think he has high potential. His
last UEFA game went really well - very challenging setting with
a big observer (Fenerbahçe vs. Olympiakós; Rizzoli) - and in
case of a good performance last night, he is increasing his
arguments all the while to get a (IMO deserved) CL debut this
season.
[/quote]
If Mikael can quickly produce images to show that the penalty
kick decision was incorrect, I am disappointed that the VAR
could not do the same. Surely a frame-by-frame review would
show that the - of the four possible decisions, of which the
penalty was the "least correct" (my clumsy phrase). Of the
four, an indirect free-kick would have been correct, but they do
seem to have gone out of fashion in recent years.
The subsequent yellow card is just another example of a referee
bolstering confidence in their decision by cautioning. When
this happens I have a narrative in my head that says: "I am
sure this is the right decision, so sure that I am going to show
a yellow card". I am rarely convinced.
#Post#: 38625--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: ARF
Date: October 13, 2021, 9:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mikael W link ---
>
> I wrote an analysis as to why awarding the penalty (clip:
streamable.com/puw10a) was the wrong decision:
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/a/gAzf4ve
>
--- End Quote ---
While I am happy to agree to disagree on what the 'best'
decision is for this incident (my decision is still a penalty
and a caution), there is one part of your analysis that I must
argue about: a) is incorrect in law, assuming there was indeed
contact made (which I believe there was, although I've yet to
see a photo or video which 100% proves whether there was or
wasn't). Law 12 is very clear - "If an offence involves contact,
it is penalised by a direct free kick." If there is contact, you
cannot give an IDFK here.
Edit: just thought that that would also make option c) incorrect
is law too!
#Post#: 38629--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: bmb
Date: October 13, 2021, 10:20 am
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I certainly thought the penalty was correct in real time
although now have to think ok maybe not in view of Mikael's
analysis. This is where I really don't understand "clear and
obvious error" and why VAR was "correct" to not rule it out -
for me this is exactly what at the very least an on field review
gets recommended for. Personally I still think a penalty was
correct & would not have complained if it had been given at the
other end. I thought it a very enjoyable game overall, probably
more so than the rest of you! We actually turned up and showed
more of the spirit that we showed at the Euros. Too little too
late but good to see it back. I thought the ref was decent
overall. It's the first time, to my knowledge, I have seen him
and I liked his quiet, in the background until needed style. As
AT said he looked fit & was up with play. He seemed to be
consistent & was fair to both teams.
I will address the crowd issues. Those involved were not
Hungarian. That's not me trying to play it down/minimise it or
anything like that. The photographs and videos widely available
in the media quite clearly show that those who instigated the
issues were Polish not Hungarian. There were Polish flags on
display and the trouble makers were all wearing Poland scarves,
hats, shirts etc. None of them were wearing Hungarian clothing
or scarves. This begs the questions as to why the English FA
thought it ok to sell a large portion of the away end to Polish
people, via the Wembley ticket office and why the Police and
Wembley security staff allowed around 150 Polish 'fans' into the
ground in the first place. They did not even attempt to hide the
fact that they were Polish and not Hungarian.
Now that said it would not surprise me to find it was a pact
between their ultras and our ultras, I'd not put anything past
the Carpathian Brigade...
There's a couple of good articles about in terms of the
investigation into the members of the Carpathian Brigade & the
anti LBGT+ banner:
HTML https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/09/09/meet-the-far-right-fanatics-getting-hungarys-football-team-in-trouble/<br
/>and one by Tom who was the founder of the website I am editor
of. it is also in the Guardian today
HTML https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/carthapian-brigade-hungary-ultras-293385
#Post#: 38633--------------------------------------------------
Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
DIR By: rustyref
Date: October 13, 2021, 12:07 pm
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I didn't think there was any contact, so IDFK would have been
the correct outcome. That said, VAR took an age to check it and
that can't have been for whether it was inside the area as that
was obvious, so I suspect they have found a slight glancing
contact.
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