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#Post#: 31734--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: TVOS
Date: May 18, 2021, 6:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Watcher link ---
>
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=2479.msg31703#msg31703
date=1621271669]
> I’m against all forms of rugby, but an independent time keeper
with a big hooter (not John Key) might bring a bit more
consistency into added time issues.
>
--- End Quote ---
In both codes of rugby the game doesn't finish until the phase
of play is over regardless of how big the time keeper's hooter
is. In Union (especially) this often results in the game going
on ad nauseum until the winning team finally manage to boot the
ball into the crowd.
[/quote]
Cheers. Like I said, I'm against all forms of rugby, so I
wouldn't know. I just remember a big hooter back in the 80s
while I was waiting for the vidiprinter!
#Post#: 31762--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: May 18, 2021, 6:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: robbie_scouse link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31700#msg31700
date=1621270297]
> Extending the game purely to allow something to be taken is
NOT within the laws
>
--- End Quote ---
Factually incorrect, not sure why you cannot accept this?
[/quote]
Tell me what restart can extend play within the laws except a
penalty. You are choosing to take issue simply because it is
your team involved on one occasion, whereas I am making the
general point you fail to grasp.
#Post#: 31763--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: May 18, 2021, 7:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=robbie_scouse link=topic=2479.msg31717#msg31717
date=1621284229]
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31700#msg31700
date=1621270297]
> Extending the game purely to allow something to be taken is
NOT within the laws
>
--- End Quote ---
Factually incorrect, not sure why you cannot accept this?
[/quote]
Tell me what restart can extend play within the laws except a
penalty. You are choosing to take issue simply because it is
your team involved on one occasion, whereas I am making the
general point you fail to grasp.
[/quote]
The point that is being argued is that the corner happended at
93:50 and with the "minimum of 4 minutes" TAO that minimu could
hvae been up to 95:00 so plenty of time to take a corner.
Your argument would be relevant if the ball goes out of play for
the corner at say 94:50 then assuming the corner is not taken
within the next 10 seconds should play then be extended to allow
it to be taken? Also when fans are at the game how much time is
added on if the ball goes in the crowd and has to be recovered?
What happens if the ball comes out of the crowd within the 10
seconds because you can be sure if the same thing happened
during "normal" time that those 10 seconds wouldn't be added on?
#Post#: 31764--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: May 18, 2021, 7:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bruntyboy link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31762#msg31762
date=1621380792]
> [quote author=robbie_scouse link=topic=2479.msg31717#msg31717
date=1621284229]
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31700#msg31700
date=1621270297]
> Extending the game purely to allow something to be taken is
NOT within the laws
>
--- End Quote ---
Factually incorrect, not sure why you cannot accept this?
[/quote]
Tell me what restart can extend play within the laws except a
penalty. You are choosing to take issue simply because it is
your team involved on one occasion, whereas I am making the
general point you fail to grasp.
[/quote]
The point that is being argued is that the corner happended at
93:50 and with the "minimum of 4 minutes" TAO that minimu could
hvae been up to 95:00 so plenty of time to take a corner.
Your argument would be relevant if the ball goes out of play for
the corner at say 94:50 then assuming the corner is not taken
within the next 10 seconds should play then be extended to allow
it to be taken? Also when fans are at the game how much time is
added on if the ball goes in the crowd and has to be recovered?
What happens if the ball comes out of the crowd within the 10
seconds because you can be sure if the same thing happened
during "normal" time that those 10 seconds wouldn't be added on?
[/quote]
And yet you still fail to grasp the point being made. Games are
routinely extended to allow a corner or free kick near goal,
which is not permitted. There is no point in trying to explain
it further beyond saying it was not just this particular match,
it happens on a regular basis, far too often for coincidence.
Can anyone remember a match concluding after a corner has been
awarded but not taken? Or a free kick near goal? Of course
not, it doesn't happen.
#Post#: 31765--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: RCG
Date: May 19, 2021, 12:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Referee coaches and assessors used to talk of neutral areas to
finish games. I am in agreement with you Late Tackle. Finishing
times are less rigorously applied if a team is attacking. I have
lost count the number of games that finish the moment a goal
keeper kickd the ball or releases it into play
#Post#: 31767--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: Leggy
Date: May 19, 2021, 1:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
But this is a wider debate, which can be summed up as "game
management" versus "applying the Laws of the Game"
Game management says blow for time when the ball is in a neutral
zone, whereas the Laws state that the game (or half) ends when
time expires.
Game management says that a throw-in or restart can proceed if
its close(ish) to where it should be, whereas the Laws state it
should be where the ball went out of play or where the offence
occurred.
Game management says that if a player delays the restart of play
by "hanging around" two yards from a free-kick the referee asks
him to retreat, whereas the Laws state that is a mandatory
caution.
Game management says that if the goal-keeper holds the ball in
his hands for 10-15 seconds turn a blind eye, whereas the Laws
state that an indirect free-kick should be awarded.
Game management says that if a player tells the referee to f**k
off turn a blind eye, whereas the Laws state that a red card
should be awarded.
I could go on (my wife says that, too often, I do). I comes
down to whether you want referees to apply the Laws of the game
in a fair and consistent manner or whether you want them to be
"game managers", taking the path of least resistance so that
their employers (who have a vested interest in the outcome of
the games) are kept happy and renew their contracts. Remember
that, after the incident in Argentina in 1978, Clive Thomas
never refereed another World Cup match. Perhaps he should have
been a better game manager?
#Post#: 31771--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: robbie_scouse
Date: May 19, 2021, 1:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=robbie_scouse link=topic=2479.msg31717#msg31717
date=1621284229]
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31700#msg31700
date=1621270297]
> Extending the game purely to allow something to be taken is
NOT within the laws
>
--- End Quote ---
Factually incorrect, not sure why you cannot accept this?
[/quote]
Tell me what restart can extend play within the laws except a
penalty. You are choosing to take issue simply because it is
your team involved on one occasion, whereas I am making the
general point you fail to grasp.
[/quote]
Not at all - I can assure you that if it had been West Brom who
scored from that corner I’d have made the same argument -
assuming you would have brought it up on here, that is. It’s not
like Liverpool - or any other team - have never conceded beyond
the minimum time indicated!
In reply to your question here, I believe the answer is anything
the referee sees fit. The only thing he cannot do in law is to
end the match without an awarded penalty been taken.
In my opinion, your interpretation of the Law is wrong and would
lead to much “gamesmanship” as in the scenario I gave you
earlier. Time management is one thing and I would tend to agree
with you on that. For example, if a referee decides there should
be an additional 3m45s added time I’m pretty sure this would be
rounded up to 4 minutes rather than indicating 3 as the minimum.
However, I don’t think - certainly as things stand - that time
management is an exact science. Experienced referees, indeed
anyone involved in football, has a feel for how much added time
should be indicated - with 1 minute in the first half and three
minutes in the second half standard (unless of course a team is
winning 7-0 then only one additional minute will be played).
This is where I feel your argument falls and I think that
Liverpool’s goal on Sunday is the perfect example. Mike Dean
indicated a minimum of 4 and the corner was awarded on 93:52.
The chances of there been exactly 4 minutes (in this or any
other match) are extremely remote so it was quite reasonable -
and within law - to allow that corner to be taken.
Free kick awarded 20 yards out on 93:35 with 4 indicated. Bit of
messing around sorting your wall out and then “sorry fellas,
times up”. That’s what you seem to be advocating and I don’t see
how that would benefit football in the slightest.
#Post#: 31791--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: May 19, 2021, 8:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RCG link ---
>
> Referee coaches and assessors used to talk of neutral areas to
finish games. I am in agreement with you Late Tackle. Finishing
times are less rigorously applied if a team is attacking. I have
lost count the number of games that finish the moment a goal
keeper kickd the ball or releases it into play
>
--- End Quote ---
Someone at last understands the point I am making. I hear the
arguments from another poster about 'game management' and time
keeping not being an exact science. If time keeping was done
properly, game management would not be an issue. This means an
outside timekeeper with a visible clock that stops and starts.
It would clarify it for everyone and have the added bonus of
cutting out most of the timewasting.
Stoppage time as a concept needs to be scrapped and replaced
with proper timekeeping for the 45 minutes. The referee can
indicate stop and start, to accommodate lengthy stoppages and
timewasting. Whether play would then end with a hooter while in
play, or continue until the ball went dead, is open to debate.
I remain convinced that the current situation is messy,
arbitrary and unsatisfactory.
If anyone watches La Liga they will surely have noticed that, if
a referee indicates 3 minutes, that is how long until the
whistle. So players cynically roll around, kick the ball into
the stands and take 30-40 seconds over a goal kick, knowing
there will be no allowance made for it.
#Post#: 31842--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: May 20, 2021, 4:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> Game management says blow for time when the ball is in a
neutral zone, whereas the Laws state that the game (or half)
ends when time expires.
>
--- End Quote ---
I generally blow for time when the ball is in a neutral zone
although I am not averse to doing so when a corner is about to
be taken (although not to Clive Thomaseseque extremes). The
reason is simple: if the ball is not in a neutral zone I am
watching the game not my watch.
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