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#Post#: 31667--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: yfc54
Date: May 17, 2021, 5:10 am
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It's a minimum time so it's the referees decision and this won't
change unless we have independent timekeepers. The point you
have raised is a valid one but is the reason why stadium
scoreboards stop the clock at 90 mins.
#Post#: 31669--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: May 17, 2021, 6:00 am
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Are referees allowed to drop the ball during Covid? Ball may
have not been cleaned hand goes to whistle which goes to mouth.
Risky at grass roots level.
#Post#: 31670--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: Leggy
Date: May 17, 2021, 6:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: yfc54 link ---
>
> It's a minimum time so it's the referees decision and this
won't change unless we have independent timekeepers. The point
you have raised is a valid one but is the reason why stadium
scoreboards stop the clock at 90 mins.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly - the correct added time could be anything from 4
minutes 00 seconds to 4 minutes 59 seconds and the Fourth
Official would hold up "4".
Also, whilst there was no obvious further stoppage, WBA (like
all teams hanging on for a win / draw) did take as long as they
could over goal-kicks, free-kicks, throw-ins and when the keeper
had the ball in hand. Certainly enough to justify allowing the
corner to proceed.
#Post#: 31671--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: May 17, 2021, 7:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=yfc54 link=topic=2479.msg31667#msg31667
date=1621246200]
> It's a minimum time so it's the referees decision and this
won't change unless we have independent timekeepers. The point
you have raised is a valid one but is the reason why stadium
scoreboards stop the clock at 90 mins.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly - the correct added time could be anything from 4
minutes 00 seconds to 4 minutes 59 seconds and the Fourth
Official would hold up "4".
Also, whilst there was no obvious further stoppage, WBA (like
all teams hanging on for a win / draw) did take as long as they
could over goal-kicks, free-kicks, throw-ins and when the keeper
had the ball in hand. Certainly enough to justify allowing the
corner to proceed.
[/quote]
I know all that, and am aware that the referee is 'sole arbiter
of time'. But it doesn't change the fact that, no matter how
much extra stoppage time has elapsed, they ALWAYS allow a corner
or ceremonial free kick to be taken. Then they blow for time
immediately afterwards. The 'minimum time' is simply a get-out.
I defy anyone to find a referee who ends a game without a corner
being allowed to be taken, even less for a free kick.
It is time that the responsibility for timekeeping at top level
was taken over by a separate timekeeper who would stop and start
the clock, from a direction of the referee. It would be similar
to rugby in that the game should end next time the ball goes out
of play, but not allowing extra phases as happened yesterday and
on many other occasions.
#Post#: 31675--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: Leggy
Date: May 17, 2021, 8:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Leggy link=topic=2479.msg31670#msg31670
date=1621252473]
> [quote author=yfc54 link=topic=2479.msg31667#msg31667
date=1621246200]
> It's a minimum time so it's the referees decision and this
won't change unless we have independent timekeepers. The point
you have raised is a valid one but is the reason why stadium
scoreboards stop the clock at 90 mins.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly - the correct added time could be anything from 4
minutes 00 seconds to 4 minutes 59 seconds and the Fourth
Official would hold up "4".
Also, whilst there was no obvious further stoppage, WBA (like
all teams hanging on for a win / draw) did take as long as they
could over goal-kicks, free-kicks, throw-ins and when the keeper
had the ball in hand. Certainly enough to justify allowing the
corner to proceed.
[/quote]
I know all that, and am aware that the referee is 'sole arbiter
of time'. But it doesn't change the fact that, no matter how
much extra stoppage time has elapsed, they ALWAYS allow a corner
or ceremonial free kick to be taken. Then they blow for time
immediately afterwards. The 'minimum time' is simply a get-out.
I defy anyone to find a referee who ends a game without a corner
being allowed to be taken, even less for a free kick.
It is time that the responsibility for timekeeping at top level
was taken over by a separate timekeeper who would stop and start
the clock, from a direction of the referee. It would be similar
to rugby in that the game should end next time the ball goes out
of play, but not allowing extra phases as happened yesterday and
on many other occasions.
[/quote]
1978 World Cup, Brazil .v. Sweden, Clive Thomas. International
career ending move.
But you are right that a time-keeper might be the next member of
the "playing control team" (**) to be added. In an earlier
thread we almost got up to eleven match officials in various
guises!
** - This is how the ICC describes the on-field umpires (x2),
the TV umpire, the Fourth Umpire and the Match Referee.
#Post#: 31685--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: robbie_scouse
Date: May 17, 2021, 10:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> There is another issue at stake here, something which crops up
on quite a regular basis but usually makes no difference to the
result. There were 4 minutes added on, and I cannot recall
anything in those 4 minutes to extend it. However, with the 4
minutes expired Liverpool get a corner. So the game was
extended to take the corner. The law says that only a penalty
kick extends the game, yet we invariably see a corner or free
kick causing such an extension. Then, as soon as the outcome is
known, the final whistle blows. Why do referees do this? Are
they instructed to do so, as they all seem to do it?
>
--- End Quote ---
Whilst I agree with your general opinion on timekeeping, I don’t
think you’ve picked the best example here to back it up.
The ball went out of play on 93:52 so surely it’s within reason
to allow the corner to be taken? If the clock had passed 94:00
then I would agree with you that it would have been a reasonable
time to blow - only if the match referee decided the minimum
time allowed would also be the maximum.
Nor did Mike Dean blow for time when Allison scored. West Brom
restarted the match and were given time to mount an attack
albeit it failed, went out for a goal kick and the match ended.
#Post#: 31686--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: May 17, 2021, 10:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> 1978 World Cup, Brazil .v. Sweden, Clive Thomas.
International career ending move.
>
> But you are right that a time-keeper might be the next member
of the "playing control team" (**) to be added. In an earlier
thread we almost got up to eleven match officials in various
guises!
>
> ** - This is how the ICC describes the on-field umpires (x2),
the TV umpire, the Fourth Umpire and the Match Referee.
>
--- End Quote ---
I was going to mention Clive Thomas, strangely enough. This is
why I suggested that, if a timekeeper were used, the play would
perhaps continue until the ball was out of play.
I wouldn't worry too much about the number of officials as long
as they have their designated roles. Football is hardly short of
money at that level. Many sports have supplementary officials.
When I was a basketball referee there were 2 of us (now 3 at top
level) plus a scorer and a timekeeper.
#Post#: 31688--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: May 17, 2021, 10:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: robbie_scouse link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31666#msg31666
date=1621245148]
> There is another issue at stake here, something which crops up
on quite a regular basis but usually makes no difference to the
result. There were 4 minutes added on, and I cannot recall
anything in those 4 minutes to extend it. However, with the 4
minutes expired Liverpool get a corner. So the game was
extended to take the corner. The law says that only a penalty
kick extends the game, yet we invariably see a corner or free
kick causing such an extension. Then, as soon as the outcome is
known, the final whistle blows. Why do referees do this? Are
they instructed to do so, as they all seem to do it?
>
--- End Quote ---
Whilst I agree with your general opinion on timekeeping, I don’t
think you’ve picked the best example here to back it up.
The ball went out of play on 93:52 so surely it’s within reason
to allow the corner to be taken? If the clock had passed 94:00
then I would agree with you that it would have been a reasonable
time to blow - only if the match referee decided the minimum
time allowed would also be the maximum.
Nor did Mike Dean blow for time when Allison scored. West Brom
restarted the match and were given time to mount an attack
albeit it failed, went out for a goal kick and the match ended.
[/quote]
Actually, it is a perfect example to illustrate the point. It
is not within the laws to allow it to be taken after 94.00. that
is exactly the point. It is also another trait of referees to
allow a brief restart then blow the final whistle, even when
time has expired. What you are suggesting would seem to be
that, if the corner was conceded within time, it should be
allowed to be taken. This is only allowed for a penalty. I
trained as a referee many decades ago and it was drilled into us
that this was the only reason to extend the playing time. After
the Clive Thomas incident it became the accepted wisdom that you
should avoid blowing the final whistle while the ball was in
play in the penalty area.
#Post#: 31689--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: ARF
Date: May 17, 2021, 10:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> Actually, it is a perfect example to illustrate the point. It
is not within the laws to allow it to be taken after 94.00.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, it is.
#Post#: 31691--------------------------------------------------
Re: 16th May 2021 - Mike Dean - WBALIV
DIR By: RefObserver
Date: May 17, 2021, 10:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ARF link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=2479.msg31688#msg31688
date=1621264293]
> Actually, it is a perfect example to illustrate the point. It
is not within the laws to allow it to be taken after 94.00.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, it is.
[/quote]
Absolutely correct - IT'S A MINIMUM OF.........
I was observing a game this season at 1-0 where the winning team
took so long at restarts the referee rightly cautioned two of
them and played 6 and 1/2 minutes instead of the (a minimum of)
4 shown.
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