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#Post#: 27879--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: March 2, 2021, 3:23 am
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=2215.msg27867#msg27867
date=1614636323]
> Considering there are innumerable posts now in referee
development, coaching and observing I would have thought that
was the carrot to help move Mason on if that is what the
authorities wished to do. For some time now I have thought that
Mason does not look like he is enjoying his refereeing; of
course that may be a false impression and he is still wildly
enthusiastic and delighted to be officiating but at West Brom he
looked a picture of flustered misery. By pretty common consent,
he isn't regarded as one of the strongest SG1 performers and
it's not good for anyone's self respect to continue in high
profile work when you know that you are not really 'cutting the
mustard' I believe the expression used is "nicking the money"
and I would hate to have that said about me as I imagine would
many except the most cynical.
>
--- End Quote ---
To quote Whistleblower: "Considering there are innumerable
posts now in referee development, coaching and observing" - it
does beg the question as to whether the footballing authorities
are getting a fair return on this investment? Is the standard
that much better than 30 years ago when the majority of these
roles either did not exist, or were carried out on a voluntary
basis?
The proliferation of such roles (along with the Country FA
equivalents) does, of course, provide a ready made supply of
"boys" from which it would appear a fair proportion of the
senior refereeing "jobs" are found ;)
[/quote]
You pose a really interesting question Leggy but one which
difficult to answer accurately for two main reasons. First
because we don't know what the present standard would be like
without all these RDOs, Coaches etc but chiefly because
professional football is radically different to how it was
played thirty or forty years ago. There is so much more emphasis
on fitness ( of both players and referees ) and technical
infringements of the ever changing interpretation of the Laws
have assumed far more of a prominence. Add to that the fact that
every match is now covered by multiple cameras and every
refereeing decision is forensically examined for its accuracy.
In many ways senior refereeing is quite a different exercise
than it was thirty/forty years ago.
To take Lee Mason's recent unfortunate predicament. Had this
happened in a match, not covered by TV in the 1980s, then I
daresay that there would hardly be a ripple except perhaps in a
local newspaper. Now, due to media technology, Mason's error is
news all over the country and perhaps the world. The pressure
that puts on match officials is huge and therefore I do think
they need more of a support structure to help them cope with
that.
I have no doubt that really fine referees of yesteryear like Joe
Worrall, George Courtney, Neil Midgely, Brian Hill would thrive
in todays climate. The not-so-stellar performers who
nevertheless did a fine job back then like Derek Nippard, Tom
Bune, Norman Glover, George Flint might find the present far
more challenging. Certainly referees who very much employed
their own particular interpretation of how to enforce the Laws
would have a torrid time now I think.
I do entirely agree with you about " a ready made supply of
"boys" " though who is reckoned to be a "boy" for whom such a
job may be found is also a very interesting question but one
left to another thread perhaps.
#Post#: 27880--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: March 2, 2021, 3:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps just to add that Sports Science is now a popular degree
subject at university and the number of jobs in the sport
industry have certainly multiplied over the recent few years and
that goes for most sports I believe. Indeed, where many
professions have been contracting in number, the sports industry
has grown enormously.
#Post#: 27881--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Claretman
Date: March 2, 2021, 4:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
After mason decided against awarding the goal and deciding to
restart with the free kick retake, he did go over
To both benches presumably to explain his decisions. Perhaps a
word or two of explanation from the pgmol might help or would it
fuel the flames?
On reflection i thought mason recovered well from a lapse in
concentration, i guess all humans make mistakes.
#Post#: 27889--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: SimP
Date: March 2, 2021, 6:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
None of us know what is in their contracts & whether they are
done season-by-season or open for x number of years, especially
after 48.
The argument is that it was "restraint of trade" that there was
a compulsory retirement age doesn't really wash with me. After
all, they would have had other jobs before becoming full time
refs & there are many more opportunities to work in the
refereeing profession such as assessors, coaches, trainers,
development officers etc. since the SG days so retirement at 48
isn't "restraint of trade" if they are offered such posts, is
it?
This has been one of the pros with having full time refs. They
will have "greater status" from their SG profile & are unlikely
to "fade away" like their predecessors. Plus, they are better
paid, fitter with an all-round "support network" & I would argue
that the refereeing standards across the board are higher than
30-40 years ago, but hard to say if Michael Oliver is better
than George Courtney. Both are excellent refs.
It does seem that under the current set up, "lesser" refs can
"hang on" to their status more easily due to the use of
tribunals, employment contracts etc, as they are "plying their
trade" in the same way as plumbers, gas engineers etc.
I have noticed that the last refs that lost their SG1 status
were in the Keith Hackett era with Andy D'Urso, Matt Messias,
Keith Stroud & Steve Tanner. It seemed that he thought that
axing poor &/or under-performing refs keeps standards high.
Under Mike Riley, no one has been demoted, apart from Stuart
Attwell with the aim to regain his status. Is this a good thing?
I am a believer that if they get promoted to that level, it's a
change of lifestyle so they should be given a fair opportunity
to prove themselves & develop for at least 4-5 years in my view.
Therefore, it puts the onus on recruitment decision-making at
that level so the likes of Roger East wouldn't have been
promoted as they were too old for development.
It may sound ageist, but I believe that refereeing is a younger
man's game, especially at the highest level. I believe that
older refs can referee lower down in the Football or National
League & "ply their trade", but it seems some SG1 refs are
"hanging on". What's the point of them staying on after 48 just
to take charge of WBA v Brighton? Surely, an up & coming ref can
manage this type of game. Fair enough if it's a Mike Dean or
Martin Atkinson who can take charge of top games, but Mason
isn't in this category.
I wonder if a stricter standard could be applied to refs in the
"lower rank" of SG1 officials based on their age, years served
in SG1, teams refereed etc? It seems the current system relies
on the refs deciding for themselves if they should "see the
light" & make way for the younger men, but if you're on a good
salary & solid contract, maintain fitness & can withstand the
criticism, then you can understand why they stay on, but it
holds back younger refs.
What's more important? Future of refereeing standards or keeping
individuals happy?
#Post#: 27890--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: guest42
Date: March 2, 2021, 6:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
David Squires with yet another superb comic strip today:
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2021/mar/02/david-squires-on-whistlegate-and-referees-under-pressure
#Post#: 27900--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Welshexref
Date: March 2, 2021, 8:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree that the whole episode was a complete and utter shambles
and should never have happened and that Lee Mason is not one of
the PL's finest performers. But am I the only (ex) ref on here
that will put their hand up and say that I dropped at least 2
equally horrendous clangers in my time in the middle - one of
which was when I completely forgot what I'd stopped play for and
what I had awarded?
Lee Mason is human and like all humans he makes mistakes (except
Mrs ExWelshref, obviously). I accept that this is a forum and
that everyone is fully entitled to their opinion but the most
disappointing thing I find about this site is the eagerness of
some contributors to vilify referees who have reached the top
echelons of the refereeing profession that most of them won't
get anywhere near. That doesn't mean that we can't criticize!
Wouldn't it be so much nicer if as a fraternity we have some
sympathy for the bloke? There but for the grace of
God............
#Post#: 27901--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: March 2, 2021, 8:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BAFRA #217 link ---
>
> The questions need to be asked. It’s also valid for the
players & coaches not to answer them. I wanted to know what they
thought of the decisions. She was doing her job, and doing it
very well as always.
>
> She’d have been criticised if she hadn’t asked those
questions. It’s part of her job and I hate to say if she wasn’t
a women she wouldn’t have had the abuse she’s had. She’s one of
the best presenters for BBC Rugby. Owen Farrell spoke well too.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with your opinion of Sonja McLaughlin as a presenter.
However on this occasion she fell short of her usual standard.
Her first question to Owen Farrell asked whether England had
been robbed by the referee. "Robbed" was the actual word she
used, which I would suggest is inappropriate when referring to a
referee. She then followed this up with two more questions
trying to provoke Owen Farrell into criticising the referee even
though he was clearly not going to bite. This left virtually no
time for a discussion of matters over which Farrell had
responsibility.
It is not the job of a post-match interviewer to provoke a
player into indiscretions. Sadly sporting interviews are going
the same way as political ones. The interviewer too often sees
it as their job to trip the interviewee up rather than ask
questions that may illuminate the listener. (Monday Night
Football on Sky Sports being a very welcome exception to this).
#Post#: 27905--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: March 2, 2021, 10:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Rugby has a particular way of dealing with these issues which
sets it aside from football. Rugby has core values and these are
taught at all levels of the game and referees are treated with
respect (mostly!). Referees often sit in the bar after a game
talking (and drinking) with the players and coaches discussing
issues raised during the game. It is a 2 way process allowing
the referee to get feedback as well as the coaches and it is
amicable and respectful. It is to be noted that the head of the
referees admitted that the match referee messed up on 2 big
decisions yet still backed him, unlike in football.
The interviewer asked a loaded assumptive question questioning
the referee's performance and whether the players felt cheated.
Many young children and players would have seen this questioning
of the referee's authority, undermining the core values of
rugby. Doing her job does not wash. It is a meaningless cliché.
#Post#: 27907--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: March 2, 2021, 10:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Watcher link ---
>
> [quote author=BAFRA #217 link=topic=2215.msg27854#msg27854
date=1614626713]
> The questions need to be asked. It’s also valid for the
players & coaches not to answer them. I wanted to know what they
thought of the decisions. She was doing her job, and doing it
very well as always.
>
> She’d have been criticised if she hadn’t asked those
questions. It’s part of her job and I hate to say if she wasn’t
a women she wouldn’t have had the abuse she’s had. She’s one of
the best presenters for BBC Rugby. Owen Farrell spoke well too.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with your opinion of Sonja McLaughlin as a presenter.
However on this occasion she fell short of her usual standard.
Her first question to Owen Farrell asked whether England had
been robbed by the referee. "Robbed" was the actual word she
used, which I would suggest is inappropriate when referring to a
referee. She then followed this up with two more questions
trying to provoke Owen Farrell into criticising the referee even
though he was clearly not going to bite. This left virtually no
time for a discussion of matters over which Farrell had
responsibility.
It is not the job of a post-match interviewer to provoke a
player into indiscretions. Sadly sporting interviews are going
the same way as political ones. The interviewer too often sees
it as their job to trip the interviewee up rather than ask
questions that may illuminate the listener. (Monday Night
Football on Sky Sports being a very welcome exception to this).
[/quote]
I can only agree. McLaughlin is usually an excellent interviewer
but her use of the word "robbed" was extremely unprofessional
and although Farrell ( and Jones ) answered most commendably in
the true spirit of the respect which marks out rugby, Mclaughlin
was determined not to let it rest there. In court she would have
been guilty of leading the witness. However she may not herself
be entirely to blame. I suspect the production teams of all
sporting events now want controversy and presenters and
interviewers are under instructions to stir it up. Something
about turning sport into a kind of soap opera and extremely
regrettable in my view.
#Post#: 27909--------------------------------------------------
Re: L MASON - West Brom v Brighton
DIR By: bmb
Date: March 2, 2021, 12:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BAFRA #217 link ---
>
> David Squires with yet another superb comic strip today:
>
>
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2021/mar/02/david-squires-on-whistlegate-and-referees-under-pressure
>
--- End Quote ---
David Squires is brilliant!
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