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#Post#: 27312--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Beryl
Date: February 21, 2021, 3:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Scally Bob link ---
>
> You’re looking for ways to justify a shocking decision. It’s a
coming together. Calver-Lewin ran into Alexander-Arnold nothing
more, nothing less. Anybody who has ever played to a reasonable
standard would appreciate that. You state it’s clearly an
accident and it seems unjust to give it so within the spirit of
the game-which the LOTG say should apply-it’s never in any
circumstance a penalty.
>
> Referees in the Premier League are looking for things that
just aren’t there. A good friend of mine who is SG1 has always
said don’t go looking to be noticed and he’s right. Nobody
expected a penalty there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Accident, and, it seeming unjust, are not covered in our
decision making,
Striker was felled, by the defender. How, where, why, do not
matter.
An accidental trip on the halfway line, is still a trip, intent
is not relevant .
One of those yesterday that understandably from punters splits
opinion, any official unsure could have any concerns cleared up
by their local training officer or equal.
#Post#: 27313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Claretman
Date: February 21, 2021, 3:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Charlieboy link ---
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=2192.msg27309#msg27309
date=1613940815]
> You’re looking for ways to justify a shocking decision. It’s a
coming together. Calver-Lewin ran into Alexander-Arnold nothing
more, nothing less. Anybody who has ever played to a reasonable
standard would appreciate that. You state it’s clearly an
accident and it seems unjust to give it so within the spirit of
the game-which the LOTG say should apply-it’s never in any
circumstance a penalty.
>
> Referees in the Premier League are looking for things that
just aren’t there. A good friend of mine who is SG1 has always
said don’t go looking to be noticed and he’s right. Nobody
expected a penalty there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Agree with this post 100% my favourite post of the thread which
IMO sums it up perfectly.👏
[/quote]
Also agree with scallybob and charlieboy.
Watching the way marriner refs games i think he thought it was a
coming together too, hence sending kavanagh to the screen and
feel sure he wouldnt Have given the pen if he had been on field.
Also kavanagh was quick to view the screen, so quick he cant
have seen all the angles, whether they were available or not or
var asked him to see more we wont know until audio is made
available as in other sports as someone else pointed out earlier
in the thread.
As dermot gallagher has said on sky a few times sometimes best
to give nothing than be hasty.
#Post#: 27314--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Dumbo
Date: February 21, 2021, 3:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Beryl link ---
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=2192.msg27309#msg27309
date=1613940815]
> You’re looking for ways to justify a shocking decision. It’s a
coming together. Calver-Lewin ran into Alexander-Arnold nothing
more, nothing less. Anybody who has ever played to a reasonable
standard would appreciate that. You state it’s clearly an
accident and it seems unjust to give it so within the spirit of
the game-which the LOTG say should apply-it’s never in any
circumstance a penalty.
>
> Referees in the Premier League are looking for things that
just aren’t there. A good friend of mine who is SG1 has always
said don’t go looking to be noticed and he’s right. Nobody
expected a penalty there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Accident, and, it seeming unjust, are not covered in our
decision making,
Striker was felled, by the defender. How, where, why, do not
matter.
An accidental trip on the halfway line, is still a trip, intent
is not relevant .
One of those yesterday that understandably from punters splits
opinion, any official unsure could have any concerns cleared up
by their local training officer or equal.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, why is an accidental knee to the head not a foul but
an accidental trip is a foul?
#Post#: 27315--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: February 21, 2021, 4:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Beryl link ---
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=2192.msg27309#msg27309
date=1613940815]
> You’re looking for ways to justify a shocking decision. It’s a
coming together. Calver-Lewin ran into Alexander-Arnold nothing
more, nothing less. Anybody who has ever played to a reasonable
standard would appreciate that. You state it’s clearly an
accident and it seems unjust to give it so within the spirit of
the game-which the LOTG say should apply-it’s never in any
circumstance a penalty.
>
> Referees in the Premier League are looking for things that
just aren’t there. A good friend of mine who is SG1 has always
said don’t go looking to be noticed and he’s right. Nobody
expected a penalty there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Accident, and, it seeming unjust, are not covered in our
decision making,
Striker was felled, by the defender. How, where, why, do not
matter.
An accidental trip on the halfway line, is still a trip, intent
is not relevant .
One of those yesterday that understandably from punters splits
opinion, any official unsure could have any concerns cleared up
by their local training officer or equal.
[/quote]
Beryl, if I may say so, I think your posts would be appreciated
more if you weren't so dogmatic with your opinions. And do I
assume from your last comment that you believe Andre Marriner
needs to see a training officer? A bit insulting, don't you
think?
#Post#: 27319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Hendo
Date: February 22, 2021, 1:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Can I suggest we cancel the penalty? Everton won 0-1. Let’s move
on
#Post#: 27320--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Beryl
Date: February 22, 2021, 1:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> [quote author=Beryl link=topic=2192.msg27312#msg27312
date=1613941769]
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=2192.msg27309#msg27309
date=1613940815]
> You’re looking for ways to justify a shocking decision. It’s a
coming together. Calver-Lewin ran into Alexander-Arnold nothing
more, nothing less. Anybody who has ever played to a reasonable
standard would appreciate that. You state it’s clearly an
accident and it seems unjust to give it so within the spirit of
the game-which the LOTG say should apply-it’s never in any
circumstance a penalty.
>
> Referees in the Premier League are looking for things that
just aren’t there. A good friend of mine who is SG1 has always
said don’t go looking to be noticed and he’s right. Nobody
expected a penalty there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Accident, and, it seeming unjust, are not covered in our
decision making,
Striker was felled, by the defender. How, where, why, do not
matter.
An accidental trip on the halfway line, is still a trip, intent
is not relevant .
One of those yesterday that understandably from punters splits
opinion, any official unsure could have any concerns cleared up
by their local training officer or equal.
[/quote]
Beryl, if I may say so, I think your posts would be appreciated
more if you weren't so dogmatic with your opinions. And do I
assume from your last comment that you believe Andre Marriner
needs to see a training officer? A bit insulting, don't you
think?
[/quote]
Its great to read that you are aware of why Mariner asked the
ref to review the call.
Can you enlighten us as to what was said? Was it to review
the pen call or a potential DOGSO?
Granted he like you or me, was not privy to the chat, but, for
example, Clattenburg has went to press with exactly my view, the
pen is a given, and it was the DOGSO which prompted the review.
If this is correct, and by all accounts it is, then, the ref,
VAR, Clatenburg, and dare I say it, myself, have correctly
called penalty kick, negating the hypothetical requirement for a
reminder on foul play.
#Post#: 27325--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: TVOS
Date: February 22, 2021, 3:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Beryl link ---
>
> [quote author=Ref Fan link=topic=2192.msg27315#msg27315
date=1613948012]
> [quote author=Beryl link=topic=2192.msg27312#msg27312
date=1613941769]
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=2192.msg27309#msg27309
date=1613940815]
> You’re looking for ways to justify a shocking decision. It’s a
coming together. Calver-Lewin ran into Alexander-Arnold nothing
more, nothing less. Anybody who has ever played to a reasonable
standard would appreciate that. You state it’s clearly an
accident and it seems unjust to give it so within the spirit of
the game-which the LOTG say should apply-it’s never in any
circumstance a penalty.
>
> Referees in the Premier League are looking for things that
just aren’t there. A good friend of mine who is SG1 has always
said don’t go looking to be noticed and he’s right. Nobody
expected a penalty there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Accident, and, it seeming unjust, are not covered in our
decision making,
Striker was felled, by the defender. How, where, why, do not
matter.
An accidental trip on the halfway line, is still a trip, intent
is not relevant .
One of those yesterday that understandably from punters splits
opinion, any official unsure could have any concerns cleared up
by their local training officer or equal.
[/quote]
Beryl, if I may say so, I think your posts would be appreciated
more if you weren't so dogmatic with your opinions. And do I
assume from your last comment that you believe Andre Marriner
needs to see a training officer? A bit insulting, don't you
think?
[/quote]
Its great to read that you are aware of why Mariner asked the
ref to review the call.
Can you enlighten us as to what was said? Was it to review
the pen call or a potential DOGSO?
When we establish this, then we can address the VARs
deficiencies or otherwise
[/quote]
So you're not taking the advice on board?
#Post#: 27328--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: February 22, 2021, 3:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Fair point Beryl and I see Clattenburg says the review was to
consider a possible Red Card , not the penalty award.
What does surprise me is that unless the situation has changed,
the TV companies have partial access to the conversations and
can hear what the VAR says but not the comments of the referee.
Previously, the commentator has sometimes indicated what is
being questioned or why. It may be this has been stopped or Sky
and BT told not to report it. I don't recall anything being
said on this occasion as to the reason for the review. My
impression was it was assumed to be the penalty decision and
that if it was DOGSO, they would have acknowledged that was the
reason - if they are still allowed to do so.
Perhaps someone heard something I missed - my hearing is not
great.
Just spotted that Halsey on twitter reckons the penalty decision
was very harsh but having given it Kavanagh should have issued a
RC. He also states that PGMOL have said Marriner requested the
review because he thought it was a clear and obvious error.
So there you go. 2 former International referees with different
interpretations.
#Post#: 27331--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: PhiltheRef
Date: February 22, 2021, 3:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Does it not normally say on the (Very big) screen what a review
is about - providing of course there is such a screen?
#Post#: 27338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - Liverpool v Everton
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: February 22, 2021, 4:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There are two fundamental problems illustrated in this event:
1) No one knows what constitutes a foul anymore. I don't think
Marriner would have given it; I do think Oliver would have given
it. We have had in the last couple of weeks two extreme
examples - the judo throw on Sterling against Swansea not given
and the penalty against Rangers in Europe given for the
apparently slightest of touches followed by a dramatic fall. If
that is the range within which referees give decisions then the
definition of a foul becomes "What the referee thinks is a foul,
is a foul". No need for VAR as there can be no clear and
obvious error, no need for the laws of the game either.
In this case the rationale for a penalty seems clear to me:
Did the defender play the ball? - not so far as I could see;
Did the failed challenge result in the attacker not being able
to play a ball that he otherwise would have been able to play? -
probably.
Could the attacker reasonably avoid contact with the defender
blocking his path? - probably not.
Harsh on the defender? - maybe, but he made the decision to dive
in for a ball he couldn't reach and in doing so interfered with
the attacker.
The contrary view would make a different assessment of my
probably and probably not.
2) The underlying culture of secrecy in, and at times
incredulity at, the communicating refereeing decisions.
Remedies:
Make the head of PGMOL be open to questioning in public over
decisions - explaining apparent anomalies in interpretation.
Make conversations between onfield officials and VAR public.
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