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#Post#: 27157--------------------------------------------------
Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: February 19, 2021, 3:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
From the google translated version of this article it seems that
Slovakian UEFA Elite referee Ivan Kružliak has been banned for 6
matches and then relegated to the second division for the rest
of the season, his crime? An incorrectly awarded penalty
HTML https://sport.aktuality.sk/c/484152/rozhodcu-ivana-kruzliaka-preradili-do-ii-ligy/
Maybe if there are any posters more familiar with the story they
can enlighten me further but I am stunned. This referee is
within the top 30 in Europe and I feel this lack of support is
simply a disgrace. I can only imagine how they treat referees at
lower levels. We spoke on this site recently about the Darren
Drysdale incident and many felt he was hung out to dry by the
FA, I feel similarly about the treatment of Mr. Kružliak. I am
straining to see the benefit of such a publicly humiliating
penalty and I can only imagine that the fact everyone knows his
punishment will make it more difficult upon his return.
Also - would he have had any chance of attending the EUROs? I
assume any possibility of that happening is now gone.
I am sorry for the angry tone in this post which I usually try
very hard to avoid. I genuinely hope that I am missing something
in this story or have gotten some details wrong through
translation.
My sincere sympathy and support for Mr. Kružliak
#Post#: 27161--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: Hendo
Date: February 19, 2021, 5:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> From the google translated version of this article it seems
that Slovakian UEFA Elite referee Ivan Kružliak has been banned
for 6 matches and then relegated to the second division for the
rest of the season, his crime? An incorrectly awarded penalty
>
>
HTML https://sport.aktuality.sk/c/484152/rozhodcu-ivana-kruzliaka-preradili-do-ii-ligy/
>
> Maybe if there are any posters more familiar with the story
they can enlighten me further but I am stunned. This referee is
within the top 30 in Europe and I feel this lack of support is
simply a disgrace. I can only imagine how they treat referees at
lower levels. We spoke on this site recently about the Darren
Drysdale incident and many felt he was hung out to dry by the
FA, I feel similarly about the treatment of Mr. Kružliak. I am
straining to see the benefit of such a publicly humiliating
penalty and I can only imagine that the fact everyone knows his
punishment will make it more difficult upon his return.
>
> Also - would he have had any chance of attending the EUROs? I
assume any possibility of that happening is now gone.
>
> I am sorry for the angry tone in this post which I usually try
very hard to avoid. I genuinely hope that I am missing something
in this story or have gotten some details wrong through
translation.
>
> My sincere sympathy and support for Mr. Kružliak
>
--- End Quote ---
Draconian in the extreme. If they imposed similar sanctions here
we would be having PL games officiated by Level 5 refs at best.
Mind you, in the case of certain refs it’s maybe not a bad idea
........🤪
#Post#: 27163--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: Beryl
Date: February 20, 2021, 1:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> From the google translated version of this article it seems
that Slovakian UEFA Elite referee Ivan Kružliak has been banned
for 6 matches and then relegated to the second division for the
rest of the season, his crime? An incorrectly awarded penalty
>
>
HTML https://sport.aktuality.sk/c/484152/rozhodcu-ivana-kruzliaka-preradili-do-ii-ligy/
>
> Maybe if there are any posters more familiar with the story
they can enlighten me further but I am stunned. This referee is
within the top 30 in Europe and I feel this lack of support is
simply a disgrace. I can only imagine how they treat referees at
lower levels. We spoke on this site recently about the Darren
Drysdale incident and many felt he was hung out to dry by the
FA, I feel similarly about the treatment of Mr. Kružliak. I am
straining to see the benefit of such a publicly humiliating
penalty and I can only imagine that the fact everyone knows his
punishment will make it more difficult upon his return.
>
> Also - would he have had any chance of attending the EUROs? I
assume any possibility of that happening is now gone.
>
> I am sorry for the angry tone in this post which I usually try
very hard to avoid. I genuinely hope that I am missing something
in this story or have gotten some details wrong through
translation.
>
> My sincere sympathy and support for Mr. Kružliak
>
--- End Quote ---
This article was on the BBC website on Friday, I cannot find it
today thiugh, in it, the Slovak FA clarified that although they
had relieved the referee of duties, he can still be appointed to
European games if selected
We/I certainly do not know if the referee had other mistakes and
this one was the straw that broke the camels back.
At face value a public suspension then at least temp demotion
seems harsh but we would need to be privy to full facts to judge
this, it might look worse for the referee if the FA said...”
following a series of below par displays...”....
#Post#: 27168--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: February 20, 2021, 5:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Beryl link ---
>
> [quote author=DublinRef link=topic=2189.msg27157#msg27157
date=1613771422]
> From the google translated version of this article it seems
that Slovakian UEFA Elite referee Ivan Kružliak has been banned
for 6 matches and then relegated to the second division for the
rest of the season, his crime? An incorrectly awarded penalty
>
>
HTML https://sport.aktuality.sk/c/484152/rozhodcu-ivana-kruzliaka-preradili-do-ii-ligy/
>
> Maybe if there are any posters more familiar with the story
they can enlighten me further but I am stunned. This referee is
within the top 30 in Europe and I feel this lack of support is
simply a disgrace. I can only imagine how they treat referees at
lower levels. We spoke on this site recently about the Darren
Drysdale incident and many felt he was hung out to dry by the
FA, I feel similarly about the treatment of Mr. Kružliak. I am
straining to see the benefit of such a publicly humiliating
penalty and I can only imagine that the fact everyone knows his
punishment will make it more difficult upon his return.
>
> Also - would he have had any chance of attending the EUROs? I
assume any possibility of that happening is now gone.
>
> I am sorry for the angry tone in this post which I usually try
very hard to avoid. I genuinely hope that I am missing something
in this story or have gotten some details wrong through
translation.
>
> My sincere sympathy and support for Mr. Kružliak
>
--- End Quote ---
This article was on the BBC website on Friday, I cannot find it
today thiugh, in it, the Slovak FA clarified that although they
had relieved the referee of duties, he can still be appointed to
European games if selected
We/I certainly do not know if the referee had other mistakes and
this one was the straw that broke the camels back.
At face value a public suspension then at least temp demotion
seems harsh but we would need to be privy to full facts to judge
this, it might look worse for the referee if the FA said...”
following a series of below par displays...”....
[/quote]
That is a fair point Beryl about the straw that broke the camels
back but IMO such public banning of referees does no good for
their development and really serves no purpose other than to try
and show accountability. Why not simply give him 2/3 more low
key matches and let him rebuild confidence/form before bringing
him back to the top league. Public draconian punishments like
this, in my opinion, only lead to referees officiating in fear
of making a mistake.
#Post#: 27179--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 20, 2021, 7:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Whilst I agree the punishment is draconian, as has been
mentioned it could have been an error in a series of errors that
broke the straw and could be deserved. Horrible for it to be so
public though. On the flipside it is good to see a country FA
holding a referee responsible for their performances. I think
overall that will build confidence in the FA in terms of dealing
with it and not burying their head in the sands. How often do
we read on here or social media complaints that there seems to
be no accountability for poor performances?
In Hungary a really dreadful performance or series of poor
performances will see a referee on extended AAR duties (unless
their name is Vad II or Karakó - can't punish the golden
boys...) It doesn't get announced but everyone knows if you see
a referee on AAR duties for 5/6 weeks that they have been
suspended, failed a fitness test or are returning from injury.
The latter 2 are normally AAR2 duties. It doesn't always happen,
injuries, covid and other reasons for
availability/unavailability of other match officials also plays
a part. It seems to make absolutely no difference to how
managers/players react to the referees with no dip in respect on
their return. I guess when it's normal it's not treated as a big
deal. Those involved in our league treat it no different to a
player getting dropped for poor performances.
#Post#: 27181--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: February 20, 2021, 8:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> Whilst I agree the punishment is draconian, as has been
mentioned it could have been an error in a series of errors that
broke the straw and could be deserved. Horrible for it to be so
public though. On the flipside it is good to see a country FA
holding a referee responsible for their performances. I think
overall that will build confidence in the FA in terms of dealing
with it and not burying their head in the sands. How often do
we read on here or social media complaints that there seems to
be no accountability for poor performances?
>
> In Hungary a really dreadful performance or series of poor
performances will see a referee on extended AAR duties (unless
their name is Vad II or Karakó - can't punish the golden
boys...) It doesn't get announced but everyone knows if you see
a referee on AAR duties for 5/6 weeks that they have been
suspended, failed a fitness test or are returning from injury.
The latter 2 are normally AAR2 duties. It doesn't always happen,
injuries, covid and other reasons for
availability/unavailability of other match officials also plays
a part. It seems to make absolutely no difference to how
managers/players react to the referees with no dip in respect on
their return. I guess when it's normal it's not treated as a big
deal. Those involved in our league treat it no different to a
player getting dropped for poor performances.
>
--- End Quote ---
Some very interesting points bmb and I suppose it comes down to
the fundamental philosophy FAs hold with regard to best managing
accountability and producing top performances. One thing I
definitely agree with you on is that making a referees
punishment so public holds absolutely no benefit other than to
perhaps appease the most vociferous critics of match officials.
I have no issue with the treatment of referees being similar to
underperforming players. A manger IMO should never publicly
announce a length of a ban for a player from the first team and
formalise it in this manner.
IMO if a referee has 2/3 bad games in a row then some kind of
action needs to be taken. This should include a few weeks out of
the spotlight with lower level games and FO appointments along
with coaching and encouragement (and a kick up the a*se probably
needed for some!) before returning to the top league. If the
referee is consistently having poor performances over an entire
season then I think it is likely they are not able to officiate
at that level.
This is the key point though for me - if this referee has
performed so poorly so consistently that he deserves such a
draconian treatment he has been terribly failed by the FA.
Intervention should come at an earlier stage, the FA should not
allow the referee to make so many errors in the top league
before intervening that they feel a 6 match ban and then a ban
from the top level for the rest of the season is necessary.
No time limit should be affixed to these bans IMO as one can
never be sure how long it will take a referee to regain form.
What if Ivan is refereeing excellently 3 games after he returns,
surely the Slovakian FA would want a UEFA elite referee who is
in good form officiating top games? That would not be possible
due to time limit imposed.
Referee 'punishments' should serve two functions in my opinion
-
1. Help the referee rebuild confidence and form allowing them to
come back stronger
2. Show a level of accountability publicly and to officials
themselves for poor decisions made
This ban might hit on point 2 but I feel it will do nothing to
help Ivan's confidence or future performances (without even
mentioning the effect on his reputation within UEFA). I have to
say I cannot support the ban in any way and feel regardless of
how poor Ivan has been performing, this has been horribly
managed by the Slovakian authorities.
#Post#: 27184--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 20, 2021, 9:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> One thing I definitely agree with you on is that making a
referees punishment so public holds absolutely no benefit other
than to perhaps appease the most vociferous critics of match
officials.
--- End Quote ---
Exactly
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> I have no issue with the treatment of referees being similar
to underperforming players. A manger IMO should never publicly
announce a length of a ban for a player from the first team and
formalise it in this manner.
--- End Quote ---
This should be standard practice, imo.
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> IMO if a referee has 2/3 bad games in a row then some kind of
action needs to be taken. This should include a few weeks out of
the spotlight with lower level games and FO appointments along
with coaching and encouragement (and a kick up the a*se probably
needed for some!) before returning to the top league. If the
referee is consistently having poor performances over an entire
season then I think it is likely they are not able to officiate
at that level.
--- End Quote ---
This is how it basically works in Hungary. 1 poor game will not
necessarily see a referee dropped but repeated poor performances
will. That said a game changing key match error will often see a
referee dropped immediately. Iványi for example failed to give
a stonewalled penalty for Lilák in the Budapest derby when the
game was at 0-0, Fradi went on to win 5-0. He has been dropped
since that game. It's not particularly consistent from the JB
though. Karakó puts in a 7.9 performance consistently week in
week out and never seems to get dropped. Vad puts in more 7.9
performances than he doesn't on the rare times he's not actually
injured and doesn't seem to ever get dropped, although to be
fair it's hard to tell with him as he is injured 95% of the
time! Erdős on the other hand made 1 error, not even game
changing, probably an 8.2 performance, and got dropped for 5
weeks! We still operate the AAR system so our 4O are AR's not
referees. Our referees will get a spell as AARs, often as AAR2
with a less experienced ref as AAR1 and possibly a game or 2 in
the NBII. They do a certain amount of NBII games as standard
though, similar to the SG1 covering x Championship games as
standard.
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> This is the key point though for me - if this referee has
performed so poorly so consistently that he deserves such a
draconian treatment he has been terribly failed by the FA.
Intervention should come at an earlier stage, the FA should not
allow the referee to make so many errors in the top league
before intervening that they feel a 6 match ban and then a ban
from the top level for the rest of the season is necessary.
>
> No time limit should be affixed to these bans IMO as one can
never be sure how long it will take a referee to regain form.
What if Ivan is refereeing excellently 3 games after he returns,
surely the Slovakian FA would want a UEFA elite referee who is
in good form officiating top games? That would not be possible
due to time limit imposed.
>
> Referee 'punishments' should serve two functions in my opinion
-
>
> 1. Help the referee rebuild confidence and form allowing them
to come back stronger
> 2. Show a level of accountability publicly and to officials
themselves for poor decisions made
>
> This ban might hit on point 2 but I feel it will do nothing to
help Ivan's confidence or future performances (without even
mentioning the effect on his reputation within UEFA). I have to
say I cannot support the ban in any way and feel regardless of
how poor Ivan has been performing, this has been horribly
managed by the Slovakian authorities.
>
--- End Quote ---
Agree
#Post#: 27188--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: February 20, 2021, 9:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
>
> This is how it basically works in Hungary. 1 poor game will
not necessarily see a referee dropped but repeated poor
performances will. That said a game changing key match error
will often see a referee dropped immediately. Iványi for
example failed to give a stonewalled penalty for Lilák in the
Budapest derby when the game was at 0-0, Fradi went on to win
5-0. He has been dropped since that game. It's not particularly
consistent from the JB though. Karakó puts in a 7.9 performance
consistently week in week out and never seems to get dropped.
Vad puts in more 7.9 performances than he doesn't on the rare
times he's not actually injured and doesn't seem to ever get
dropped, although to be fair it's hard to tell with him as he is
injured 95% of the time! Erdős on the other hand made 1
error, not even game changing, probably an 8.2 performance, and
got dropped for 5 weeks! We still operate the AAR system so our
4O are AR's not referees. Our referees will get a spell as AARs,
often as AAR2 with a less experienced ref as AAR1 and possibly a
game or 2 in the NBII. They do a certain amount of NBII games as
standard though, similar to the SG1 covering x Championship
games as standard.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's interesting with regard to AARs still being operated,
almost an advantage in a sense when taking a referee out of
fixtures they can still have a more active role than FO. I
think you make an excellent point re consistency - "punishments"
like this have to be seen to be absolutely consistent any
perceived injustice I'm sure will only cause issue between the
referees themselves!
Wouldn't it be much easier if the FAs just let us here at RTR
run their refereeing departments? ;) ;D
#Post#: 27189--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ivan Kružliak
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 20, 2021, 9:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> That's interesting with regard to AARs still being operated,
almost an advantage in a sense when taking a referee out of
fixtures they can still have a more active role than FO. I
think you make an excellent point re consistency - "punishments"
like this have to be seen to be absolutely consistent any
perceived injustice I'm sure will only cause issue between the
referees themselves!
>
> Wouldn't it be much easier if the FAs just let us here at RTR
run their refereeing departments? ;) ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
The 2 referees I mentioned are not well liked by
players/managers/fans/media or other referees by all accounts! I
suspect the inconsistency in their favour plays a part in that.
That and neither are particularly competent! They can both put
in excellent performances but it's the exception rather than the
norm sadly. I would love both of them to come good but they
disappoint week in week out.
I much prefer the AAR system - it works really well in our
league and always has. They are more interactive than they were
when used in FIFA/UEFA games. Not looking forward too losing it
to VAR, probably next season.
An added advantage is if a referee is on punishment, or
returning from injury making them AAR 2 means there is little to
no chance of them having to take over as referee if that were
needed. AAR1 is the one to take over if needed so for a AAR2 to
take over both the referee and AAR1 would need to have been
injured/unable to continue. I can't remember a single game in 10
years where the referee has been replaced in the NBI during a
match.
First thing I am doing when I take over the JB in Hungary is
banning yellow referee shirts! Any ref defying me and wearing
one will get suspended for 6 matches minimum! No AAR duties,
they'll be at home tackling the long DIY lists their spouses
will have ready for them!!! ;D
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