DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
RateTheRef
HTML https://ratetheref.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 26550--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: rustyref
Date: February 7, 2021, 4:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The majority of officials I have worked with have been great and
really adopted the team approach, but unfortunately there are
some that don't fit that model. The worst I experienced was
when I was fourth official. The referee as part of his
instructions told me to keep a stoppage log, and then said I
should recommend how much added time to play at the end of each
half and he would either agree or suggest otherwise. At the end
of the first half I suggested 3 minutes, he was around five
metres away from me when we had this discussion and he said "yes
I agree".
At the end of the game the observer said that he felt first half
stoppage time was inadequate. Before I had a chance to say
anything the referee responded with "yes, I thought so as well
and I don't understand why he put up 3 minutes". It was
probably the angriest I have ever been whilst involved in
officiating, he completely threw me to the wolves just to
protect himself and there was no way I was ever going to work
with that referee again. Had I been put with him again I would
have found a reason to come off the game.
On the flip side, my first ever game as a 3E official was 4th
man at Salisbury on a Tuesday night. The referee phoned me a
few days before and said that he had to speak to me as he
couldn't understand why a North London referee was on that game
and assumed I was travelling from elsewhere. Once I told him I
was indeed travelling from London he insisted that I picked him
and one of the assistants up so that I could claim the mileage,
and looked after me from the minute I first spoke to him but
also called me after the game to ask me if I needed any help. A
top man and I will never forget that game. Most referees are
great, but unfortunately there are a few self serving
individuals who will climb over anyone and everyone to get to
where they want to be.
#Post#: 26552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: RCG
Date: February 8, 2021, 2:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I was 4th official on a cup tie. The referee, senior AR and
match assessor were from one level, junior AR plus myself the
level below. Very excited to be there.
Other than to ask out first names the referee never once
involved us in discussions, on the pitch walk took senior AR
with him to talk to one team's players. Match instructions
consisted of "you know what you are doing, plus 2 sugars in my
tea at half time"
Conversely at a pre match briefing with captains and coaches, a
referee made sure I was introduced (4th official) first as "he
will be working with you the most, treat him as you would me as
he has my full backing"
Compare and contrast!
#Post#: 26621--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: ajb95
Date: February 8, 2021, 2:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
To flip this on its head slightly, In my very very early
refereeing days we used to watch clips of refs from the 90’s and
early 2000’s: Riley Poll et al for our clips and weekly
discussions which were really good.
For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant and
seemed very selfish.
Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
#Post#: 26626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 8, 2021, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
> Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant
and seemed very selfish.
>
> Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
>
--- End Quote ---
Mr Elleray is a strange man. He was very supportive of bmb jr
and did a lot for him, including arranging for him to guest with
Kassai and team and for him to attend several seminars not
normally open to youngsters. Jr did his first game at age 11yrs
and 5 days & it fascinated Mr Elleray that one so young wanted
to referee not play. He liked bmb jr, partially I believe,
because of his manners and respectful nature. Jr always called
him Sir or Mr Elleray & a few months down the line Mr Elleray
did comment on his grammar school education as shining through -
he'd literally only been at the school a week or 2 at the time!!
He is very much the school principal in life in general, imo -
good manners go a long way with him. He phoned me absolutely
delighted that he had received a handwritten thank you letter
from jr and was full of praise for my parenting and how much a
delight jr was to deal with. Some I know a bit more cynical than
me told me his involvement with jr was just to make him look
good in certain circles, I have no idea if it was or wasn't but
I can certainly not fault him in any way with how he supported
him, took the time to teach him and with how polite, warm and
respectful he always was towards me. It would not surprise me if
he fell into the autism spectrum, high functioning I mean, maybe
Aspergers - to me he has many of the traits. Jr has ADHD &
Asperger's which was something else that fascinated Mr Elleray
and they had a few talks about how it impacted his life in
general as well as with refereeing. I remember he and jr having
a long conversation about links - Mr Elleray going to Dover Boys
grammar, I went to the girls grammar there for 1 year, us being
at the same RA at different times, jr's bond with Hungary
because he was born on the anniversary of the revolution, Kassai
being his favorite where a link was that he was born in
Christchurch which is twinned with Tatabanya, where Kassai was
born, Mr Palotai being the first foreign referee I ever watched,
Kassai being his - both Hungarians etc. Jr even found a link
with Chris Wild at UEFA who was also a big influence - he'd been
in the away crowd at an AFCB game that was significant to Jr -
might have been Jr's 1st game as a newborn actually! It was
quite the conversation and both of them were equally fascinated
by it. Me I got through about 4 coffees while they chatted and
didn't exist as far as they were concerned! I know lots of
people speak more negatively about him though, my own personal
experience & more importantly that of my then very young son
were only ever positive.
#Post#: 26628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: rustyref
Date: February 8, 2021, 4:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> To flip this on its head slightly, In my very very early
refereeing days we used to watch clips of refs from the 90’s and
early 2000’s: Riley Poll et al for our clips and weekly
discussions which were really good.
> For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
> Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant
and seemed very selfish.
>
> Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
>
--- End Quote ---
I've met him a couple of times and he was pleasant enough, but
he is obviously very prim and proper and very much a
traditionalist. Football has moved on a lot since his time at
the top level of refereeing, and I think there is a question as
to whether a 66 year old should effectively be in control of
refereeing in England. As an example, I've long been saying
that this archaic system that referees turn up suited and booted
needs to go, people that work in the City at worst are smart
casual now, and often less formal than that, so why is it
considered a requirement to wear a shirt and tie to go to a
football game? These days a smart tracksuit with a polo shirt
looks far more professional, but we are sticking with standards
from 30 years ago. My elderly neighbour puts on a shirt and tie
just to go to the corner shop, but that doesn't mean the rest of
the street follow suit.
#Post#: 26631--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: February 9, 2021, 2:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I always looked forward to Norman Burtenshaw. A bit of a showman
and controversial at times - now where have I heard that said of
present-day refs - he was nevertheless a welcome visitor to
Selhurst Park whenever he turned up (quite often I seem to
recall), the fittest top flight ref by a long way and always
on-the-spot to make the big decisions which were almost always
correct.
#Post#: 26632--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: February 9, 2021, 3:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=2144.msg26621#msg26621
date=1612814468]
> To flip this on its head slightly, In my very very early
refereeing days we used to watch clips of refs from the 90’s and
early 2000’s: Riley Poll et al for our clips and weekly
discussions which were really good.
> For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
> Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant
and seemed very selfish.
>
> Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
>
--- End Quote ---
At the risk of going of at a tangent, this season we haven't
been required to wear
I've met him a couple of times and he was pleasant enough, but
he is obviously very prim and proper and very much a
traditionalist. Football has moved on a lot since his time at
the top level of refereeing, and I think there is a question as
to whether a 66 year old should effectively be in control of
refereeing in England. As an example, I've long been saying
that this archaic system that referees turn up suited and booted
needs to go, people that work in the City at worst are smart
casual now, and often less formal than that, so why is it
considered a requirement to wear a shirt and tie to go to a
football game? These days a smart tracksuit with a polo shirt
looks far more professional, but we are sticking with standards
from 30 years ago. My elderly neighbour puts on a shirt and tie
just to go to the corner shop, but that doesn't mean the rest of
the street follow suit.
[/quote]
At the risk of going off at a tangent, this season of course we
haven't been required to wear a suit and tie for matches. As
far as I am aware no game has gone haywire as a result. However
if this is going to continue post pandemic I feel we need to
standardise match day apparel. There have been occasions this
season where I have seen referees all dressed completely
differently whilst still sticking to the tracksuit / polo shirt
guidelines. Personally I value feeling part of a team and think
we should show that we are one by what we wear. The downside of
this is that we would all have to fork out extra cash to buy the
approved outfit as I can't see the FA supplying it gratis. At
least when it's suit and tie I just wear my standard work
clothes (or at least they used to be my standard work clothes
when I went to the office!)
#Post#: 26633--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 9, 2021, 4:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=2144.msg26621#msg26621
date=1612814468]
> For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
> Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant
and seemed very selfish.
>
> Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
>
--- End Quote ---
Mr Elleray is a strange man. He was very supportive of bmb jr
and did a lot for him, including arranging for him to guest with
Kassai and team and for him to attend several seminars not
normally open to youngsters. Jr did his first game at age 11yrs
and 5 days & it fascinated Mr Elleray that one so young wanted
to referee not play. He liked bmb jr, partially I believe,
because of his manners and respectful nature. Jr always called
him Sir or Mr Elleray & a few months down the line Mr Elleray
did comment on his grammar school education as shining through -
he'd literally only been at the school a week or 2 at the time!!
He is very much the school principal in life in general, imo -
good manners go a long way with him. He phoned me absolutely
delighted that he had received a handwritten thank you letter
from jr and was full of praise for my parenting and how much a
delight jr was to deal with. Some I know a bit more cynical than
me told me his involvement with jr was just to make him look
good in certain circles, I have no idea if it was or wasn't but
I can certainly not fault him in any way with how he supported
him, took the time to teach him and with how polite, warm and
respectful he always was towards me. It would not surprise me if
he fell into the autism spectrum, high functioning I mean, maybe
Aspergers - to me he has many of the traits. Jr has ADHD &
Asperger's which was something else that fascinated Mr Elleray
and they had a few talks about how it impacted his life in
general as well as with refereeing. I remember he and jr having
a long conversation about links - Mr Elleray going to Dover Boys
grammar, I went to the girls grammar there for 1 year, us being
at the same RA at different times, jr's bond with Hungary
because he was born on the anniversary of the revolution, Kassai
being his favorite where a link was that he was born in
Christchurch which is twinned with Tatabanya, where Kassai was
born, Mr Palotai being the first foreign referee I ever watched,
Kassai being his - both Hungarians etc. Jr even found a link
with Chris Wild at UEFA who was also a big influence - he'd been
in the away crowd at an AFCB game that was significant to Jr -
might have been Jr's 1st game as a newborn actually! It was
quite the conversation and both of them were equally fascinated
by it. Me I got through about 4 coffees while they chatted and
didn't exist as far as they were concerned! I know lots of
people speak more negatively about him though, my own personal
experience & more importantly that of my then very young son
were only ever positive.
[/quote]
If you read David Elleray's autobiography and his diary of one
season in his Premiership career then that reveals a great deal
about the man. I also have met him. He is formidably intelligent
and utterly focussed on his tasks and aspirations. He is an
Oxford geographer and I think very much sees refereeing as a
science rather than an art. Dover Grammar school is the key
after which Oxford and a highly successful career at Harrow
School, one of the leading Public Schools in the country. So
there is a bit of manufactured polish about him which can come
over as aloofness or arrogance but actually I don't think he is
either. I see a parallel to Sir John Major, who from a modest
beginning rose to the very top of his career and used a certain
way of speaking, very particular choice of words and extremely
measured delivery, in his senior roles. Major manages to convey
a warmth though which Elleray doesn't quite achieve. Elleray
describes how he rarely gets angry because it is such an
"inefficient" emotion. That speaks volumes I think. In his
autobiography Elleray is quite candid about seeking and applying
for a Headmastership at Harrow and other leading Public Schools.
He never managed to land one despite his many obvious and great
abilities. I suspect the Governors of these school detected just
something missing for the complete appointment.
There is no doubt Elleray is a traditionalist who abhors the
flash and show-off tendencies employed by some. In private, I
have heard, he is an affectionate man. Interestingly his
autobiography reveals that two of his good friends in the
refereeing world are Steve Lodge and Martin Bodenham, two more
down to earth people it would be hard to find. Conversely I
don't think Graham Poll would ever have been a great mate.
#Post#: 26634--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
Date: February 9, 2021, 4:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=2144.msg26626#msg26626
date=1612821969]
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=2144.msg26621#msg26621
date=1612814468]
> For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
> Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant
and seemed very selfish.
>
> Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
>
--- End Quote ---
Mr Elleray is a strange man. He was very supportive of bmb jr
and did a lot for him, including arranging for him to guest with
Kassai and team and for him to attend several seminars not
normally open to youngsters. Jr did his first game at age 11yrs
and 5 days & it fascinated Mr Elleray that one so young wanted
to referee not play. He liked bmb jr, partially I believe,
because of his manners and respectful nature. Jr always called
him Sir or Mr Elleray & a few months down the line Mr Elleray
did comment on his grammar school education as shining through -
he'd literally only been at the school a week or 2 at the time!!
He is very much the school principal in life in general, imo -
good manners go a long way with him. He phoned me absolutely
delighted that he had received a handwritten thank you letter
from jr and was full of praise for my parenting and how much a
delight jr was to deal with. Some I know a bit more cynical than
me told me his involvement with jr was just to make him look
good in certain circles, I have no idea if it was or wasn't but
I can certainly not fault him in any way with how he supported
him, took the time to teach him and with how polite, warm and
respectful he always was towards me. It would not surprise me if
he fell into the autism spectrum, high functioning I mean, maybe
Aspergers - to me he has many of the traits. Jr has ADHD &
Asperger's which was something else that fascinated Mr Elleray
and they had a few talks about how it impacted his life in
general as well as with refereeing. I remember he and jr having
a long conversation about links - Mr Elleray going to Dover Boys
grammar, I went to the girls grammar there for 1 year, us being
at the same RA at different times, jr's bond with Hungary
because he was born on the anniversary of the revolution, Kassai
being his favorite where a link was that he was born in
Christchurch which is twinned with Tatabanya, where Kassai was
born, Mr Palotai being the first foreign referee I ever watched,
Kassai being his - both Hungarians etc. Jr even found a link
with Chris Wild at UEFA who was also a big influence - he'd been
in the away crowd at an AFCB game that was significant to Jr -
might have been Jr's 1st game as a newborn actually! It was
quite the conversation and both of them were equally fascinated
by it. Me I got through about 4 coffees while they chatted and
didn't exist as far as they were concerned! I know lots of
people speak more negatively about him though, my own personal
experience & more importantly that of my then very young son
were only ever positive.
[/quote]
If you read David Elleray's autobiography and his diary of one
season in his Premiership career then that reveals a great deal
about the man. I also have met him. He is formidably intelligent
and utterly focussed on his tasks and aspirations. He is an
Oxford geographer and I think very much sees refereeing as a
science rather than an art. Dover Grammar school is the key
after which Oxford and a highly successful career at Harrow
School, one of the leading Public Schools in the country. So
there is a bit of manufactured polish about him which can come
over as aloofness or arrogance but actually I don't think he is
either. I see a parallel to Sir John Major, who from a modest
beginning rose to the very top of his career and used a certain
way of speaking, very particular choice of words and extremely
measured delivery, in his senior roles. Major manages to convey
a warmth though which Elleray doesn't quite achieve. Elleray
describes how he rarely gets angry because it is such an
"inefficient" emotion. That speaks volumes I think. In his
autobiography Elleray is quite candid about seeking and applying
for a Headmastership at Harrow and other leading Public Schools.
He never managed to land one despite his many obvious and great
abilities. I suspect the Governors of these school detected just
something missing for the complete appointment.
There is no doubt Elleray is a traditionalist who abhors the
flash and show-off tendencies employed by some. In private, I
have heard, he is an affectionate man. Interestingly his
autobiography reveals that two of his good friends in the
refereeing world are Steve Lodge and Martin Bodenham, two more
down to earth people it would be hard to find. Conversely I
don't think Graham Poll would ever have been a great mate.
[/quote]
Nor Clattenburg.... lest we forget!
Lord Elleray showed a complete disdain for him.
#Post#: 26635--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Beryl
Date: February 9, 2021, 4:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TheThingFromLewes link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=2144.msg26633#msg26633
date=1612866384]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=2144.msg26626#msg26626
date=1612821969]
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=2144.msg26621#msg26621
date=1612814468]
> For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat.
The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which
was felt quite patronising.
> Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant
and seemed very selfish.
>
> Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief
encounter
>
--- End Quote ---
Mr Elleray is a strange man. He was very supportive of bmb jr
and did a lot for him, including arranging for him to guest with
Kassai and team and for him to attend several seminars not
normally open to youngsters. Jr did his first game at age 11yrs
and 5 days & it fascinated Mr Elleray that one so young wanted
to referee not play. He liked bmb jr, partially I believe,
because of his manners and respectful nature. Jr always called
him Sir or Mr Elleray & a few months down the line Mr Elleray
did comment on his grammar school education as shining through -
he'd literally only been at the school a week or 2 at the time!!
He is very much the school principal in life in general, imo -
good manners go a long way with him. He phoned me absolutely
delighted that he had received a handwritten thank you letter
from jr and was full of praise for my parenting and how much a
delight jr was to deal with. Some I know a bit more cynical than
me told me his involvement with jr was just to make him look
good in certain circles, I have no idea if it was or wasn't but
I can certainly not fault him in any way with how he supported
him, took the time to teach him and with how polite, warm and
respectful he always was towards me. It would not surprise me if
he fell into the autism spectrum, high functioning I mean, maybe
Aspergers - to me he has many of the traits. Jr has ADHD &
Asperger's which was something else that fascinated Mr Elleray
and they had a few talks about how it impacted his life in
general as well as with refereeing. I remember he and jr having
a long conversation about links - Mr Elleray going to Dover Boys
grammar, I went to the girls grammar there for 1 year, us being
at the same RA at different times, jr's bond with Hungary
because he was born on the anniversary of the revolution, Kassai
being his favorite where a link was that he was born in
Christchurch which is twinned with Tatabanya, where Kassai was
born, Mr Palotai being the first foreign referee I ever watched,
Kassai being his - both Hungarians etc. Jr even found a link
with Chris Wild at UEFA who was also a big influence - he'd been
in the away crowd at an AFCB game that was significant to Jr -
might have been Jr's 1st game as a newborn actually! It was
quite the conversation and both of them were equally fascinated
by it. Me I got through about 4 coffees while they chatted and
didn't exist as far as they were concerned! I know lots of
people speak more negatively about him though, my own personal
experience & more importantly that of my then very young son
were only ever positive.
[/quote]
If you read David Elleray's autobiography and his diary of one
season in his Premiership career then that reveals a great deal
about the man. I also have met him. He is formidably intelligent
and utterly focussed on his tasks and aspirations. He is an
Oxford geographer and I think very much sees refereeing as a
science rather than an art. Dover Grammar school is the key
after which Oxford and a highly successful career at Harrow
School, one of the leading Public Schools in the country. So
there is a bit of manufactured polish about him which can come
over as aloofness or arrogance but actually I don't think he is
either. I see a parallel to Sir John Major, who from a modest
beginning rose to the very top of his career and used a certain
way of speaking, very particular choice of words and extremely
measured delivery, in his senior roles. Major manages to convey
a warmth though which Elleray doesn't quite achieve. Elleray
describes how he rarely gets angry because it is such an
"inefficient" emotion. That speaks volumes I think. In his
autobiography Elleray is quite candid about seeking and applying
for a Headmastership at Harrow and other leading Public Schools.
He never managed to land one despite his many obvious and great
abilities. I suspect the Governors of these school detected just
something missing for the complete appointment.
There is no doubt Elleray is a traditionalist who abhors the
flash and show-off tendencies employed by some. In private, I
have heard, he is an affectionate man. Interestingly his
autobiography reveals that two of his good friends in the
refereeing world are Steve Lodge and Martin Bodenham, two more
down to earth people it would be hard to find. Conversely I
don't think Graham Poll would ever have been a great mate.
[/quote]
Nor Clattenburg.... lest we forget!
Lord Elleray showed a complete disdain for him.
[/quote]
Dont know which was worse, Polls insistence that he was middle,
flanked by his linesman in public, under threat that if you did
not comply, you would be removed from HIS adventures, or anyone
weak enough to go along with the narcissism
Close second be Rennies requirement that the linos carried his
kit bag.
*****************************************************
Page 6 of 8
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page