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#Post#: 26508--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: JCFC
Date: February 7, 2021, 7:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid Whistleblower's faith in me is sadly misplaced.
#Post#: 26509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 7, 2021, 7:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> Glad I've been able to brighten up a drab grey weekend for
some of you. Malcolm Sinclair, Ray Lewis and Ray Biggar (a good
Surrey colleague in the 1970s) are indeed blameless. I will keep
the suspense going a little longer and say that the
drinks-buyer's last game on the FL was also the last game in the
FL for one of the participating clubs, although they have since
returned to the fold and are doing quite well at present. The
hater-of-linesmen was himself a linesman when he witnessed what
must rank as one of the biggest punch-ups ever seen at Wembley,
and that at a so-called charitable affray, sorry affair! ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
Actually the research has been surprisingly easy. The alcoholic
benefactor was the gentleman from the place of "mushroomy,
pine-woody evergreen smells" John Betjeman A Subaltern's
Love-song, Camberley. A gentleman who indeed my have had a Club
named after him. The hater of linos was the namesake of " a
very naughty boy " from South Croydon
#Post#: 26511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 7, 2021, 8:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Actually I saw both referee live. Cotton at Wimbledon and I
remember being struck by his speed and fitness at a time when
there were quite a few slow-moving referees about on the
National List. James at Cambridge when he completely lost
control of a feisty encounter; there were a couple of sendings
off ( when these were quite rare ) a host of cautions and I seem
to remember that he had so lost control that he played no added
time, so keen was he to get off the pitch. I don't know, but if
that match was being assessed/observed, then it probably
finished his career in a single afternoon.
These are exactly the identities I thought they might be as I
had heard years and years ago that James was pretty unpopular
with certain people who didn't like officiating with him.
#Post#: 26521--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: February 7, 2021, 10:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=RCG link=topic=2144.msg26417#msg26417
date=1612568544]
> Clive Wilkes was another referee who quietly got in with his
job - has a very dry sense of humour
> Colin Webster made you feel part of his team and that he was
there in the "bunker" with you (something I tried to bring to my
games)
> Alan Wiley was possibly the nicest, warmest referee i worked
with. The players loved his style, never skirked a big decision.
>
> Conversely I also worked with Steve Baines, whose idea of the
game was that it was about him. I had the audacity to indicate a
free kick near me. At the next throw in he gave indication that
it was to be be an offensive throw, even though I believed he
was wrong he was adamant in his body language. As I went with
him, he whistled, gave it the other (correct) way, gave me a
thumbs up and a smile! When i got back to the benches on of the
coaches patted me on thr shoulder and said "he f**king stitched
u up there, we saw it, just do your job lad"
> So maybe I did learn as much from him, as I vowed that would
never happen to an assistant of mine
>
--- End Quote ---
Despicable behaviour. Something similar happened to me quite
early on in my career from probably the most obnoxious referee I
have ever worked with. He just seemed to go out of his way to
humiliate his Linos so as to better reflect himself. He spent
most of the time in the changing room outlining his career plan
to us which ultimately would end up with him being a FIFA
referee. Those were the days when a bad report from a referee
could really stymie a budding career so we just had to listen to
him, though on the way back in the car park my fellow Lino
remarked to me about him "Daft tw*t" to which I could only
agree. The said referee's career? Well he ended up as a Football
League Linesman, nothing more. I am ashamed to say that he
provoked in me one of my worse moments. We met years later at an
Ipswich Town FC match and I said to him " I watch a fair few
international matches but have never seen you referee one of
them. Did you ever get that FIFA badge? " and didn't wait to
listen to his bluster in reply.
There have always been referees who think it is all about them;
Clive Thomas perhaps being the most notable example. And however
well they progressed none of them could hold a candle to Ron
Challis or Joe Worrall.
[/quote]
I'm afraid that some referees have always thought it was 'all
about them' at all levels. I'm sure most of us could name a few
who referee with an arrogant swagger and imagine the crowd have
paid to watch jus them. Even at local level I encountered some
seriously inflated egos.
As for role models and inspiration, The local RA where I lived
was run by some very pompous and self-serving characters and
young referees were given very little encouragement. There was
a sink-or-swim attitude that saw many of them give up after a
year or two. Unsurprisingly, for a fairly large association
there wasn't much representation at Football League level.
One person who did encourage me was a guest speaker at a
Referees' Association meeting when I was about 17. No less a
person than Jack Taylor collared me after the meeting to ask if
someone so young was actually a referee. He spent several
minutes giving me advice, encouragement and confidence to
continue. I never forgot his wise and kind words, such a
contrast to the local stuffed blazers.
#Post#: 26524--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 7, 2021, 11:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> As for role models and inspiration, The local RA where I lived
was run by some very pompous and self-serving characters and
young referees were given very little encouragement. There was
a sink-or-swim attitude that saw many of them give up after a
year or two.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can certainly relate to that. I was allocated to 2 of my
teachers so I was lucky, they were both supportive and really
looked out for me, in school and out. The RA in general though
were absolutely horrified to be infiltrated by a teenage female
and never quite knew what to do with me or how to handle me. It
was many moons ago though and I was the only female there, there
weren't many teens either and for many of the old men a teen
female was completely alien! It was still an era of a child
should be seen and not heard so a female child daring to enter
men only territory was nigh on a criminal offence! I'd note any
questions I had & ask Bill or Graham at school, I was too scared
to speak at meetings & if I ever went to speak Bill or Graham
would shush me as all the old men glared my way! I do also think
part of it was a fear of looking improper as older men
interacting with a young teen female was not really appropriate
in those days, unless it was a relative, otherwise it was viewed
suspiciously.
I would hope things are better these days.
#Post#: 26526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 7, 2021, 12:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=2144.msg26419#msg26419
date=1612604805]
> [quote author=RCG link=topic=2144.msg26417#msg26417
date=1612568544]
> Clive Wilkes was another referee who quietly got in with his
job - has a very dry sense of humour
> Colin Webster made you feel part of his team and that he was
there in the "bunker" with you (something I tried to bring to my
games)
> Alan Wiley was possibly the nicest, warmest referee i worked
with. The players loved his style, never skirked a big decision.
>
> Conversely I also worked with Steve Baines, whose idea of the
game was that it was about him. I had the audacity to indicate a
free kick near me. At the next throw in he gave indication that
it was to be be an offensive throw, even though I believed he
was wrong he was adamant in his body language. As I went with
him, he whistled, gave it the other (correct) way, gave me a
thumbs up and a smile! When i got back to the benches on of the
coaches patted me on thr shoulder and said "he f**king stitched
u up there, we saw it, just do your job lad"
> So maybe I did learn as much from him, as I vowed that would
never happen to an assistant of mine
>
--- End Quote ---
Despicable behaviour. Something similar happened to me quite
early on in my career from probably the most obnoxious referee I
have ever worked with. He just seemed to go out of his way to
humiliate his Linos so as to better reflect himself. He spent
most of the time in the changing room outlining his career plan
to us which ultimately would end up with him being a FIFA
referee. Those were the days when a bad report from a referee
could really stymie a budding career so we just had to listen to
him, though on the way back in the car park my fellow Lino
remarked to me about him "Daft tw*t" to which I could only
agree. The said referee's career? Well he ended up as a Football
League Linesman, nothing more. I am ashamed to say that he
provoked in me one of my worse moments. We met years later at an
Ipswich Town FC match and I said to him " I watch a fair few
international matches but have never seen you referee one of
them. Did you ever get that FIFA badge? " and didn't wait to
listen to his bluster in reply.
There have always been referees who think it is all about them;
Clive Thomas perhaps being the most notable example. And however
well they progressed none of them could hold a candle to Ron
Challis or Joe Worrall.
[/quote]
I'm afraid that some referees have always thought it was 'all
about them' at all levels. I'm sure most of us could name a few
who referee with an arrogant swagger and imagine the crowd have
paid to watch jus them. Even at local level I encountered some
seriously inflated egos.
As for role models and inspiration, The local RA where I lived
was run by some very pompous and self-serving characters and
young referees were given very little encouragement. There was
a sink-or-swim attitude that saw many of them give up after a
year or two. Unsurprisingly, for a fairly large association
there wasn't much representation at Football League level.
One person who did encourage me was a guest speaker at a
Referees' Association meeting when I was about 17. No less a
person than Jack Taylor collared me after the meeting to ask if
someone so young was actually a referee. He spent several
minutes giving me advice, encouragement and confidence to
continue. I never forgot his wise and kind words, such a
contrast to the local stuffed blazers.
[/quote]
I never had the pleasure and privilege of meeting Jack Taylor
but everything I have heard about him is typified in your
remembrance of him. Taylor was one of the greatest referees in
the world and yet he never lost his sense of proportion or being
thankful for having such a marvellous career. It's all there in
his autobiography called something like 'Jack Taylor World Cup
Referee' It's well worth a read; I gave my copy to a young
referee some years ago.
For all the self-servers, egotists and egoists, most of the
referees who I encountered when beginning my officiating career
were great people who would encourage, support and cover for my
many mistakes.
When I was starting out I was already doing quite a bit of
university football so wore the badge of Cambridge University
AFL which was akin to a County Badge. Back home during one
vacation I was out lining to a real old stager who I always
enjoyed going out with. In the changing room he noticed the
badge and asked me what it was. When I told him he looked to the
other lino and said "f**k me Tom, I never went there did you?"
His ribbing was always kindly and from then on he always
referred to me as the Professor whenever we were out together.
There were so many great characters like him back in the day and
I learned so much from them in how to interpret a match, its
dynamics and feeling and referee it accordingly.
#Post#: 26536--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: JCFC
Date: February 7, 2021, 1:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=2144.msg26505#msg26505
date=1612704284]
> Glad I've been able to brighten up a drab grey weekend for
some of you. Malcolm Sinclair, Ray Lewis and Ray Biggar (a good
Surrey colleague in the 1970s) are indeed blameless. I will keep
the suspense going a little longer and say that the
drinks-buyer's last game on the FL was also the last game in the
FL for one of the participating clubs, although they have since
returned to the fold and are doing quite well at present. The
hater-of-linesmen was himself a linesman when he witnessed what
must rank as one of the biggest punch-ups ever seen at Wembley,
and that at a so-called charitable affray, sorry affair! ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
Actually the research has been surprisingly easy. The alcoholic
benefactor was the gentleman from the place of "mushroomy,
pine-woody evergreen smells" John Betjeman A Subaltern's
Love-song, Camberley. A gentleman who indeed my have had a Club
named after him. The hater of linos was the namesake of " a
very naughty boy " from South Croydon
[/quote]
The South Croydon naughty boy was actually a Bryan. His second
name was Maurice, what the L stood for remains unknown. He was
born in Dartford in 1932, where he subsequently married. He died
in Croydon in 1998.
The origins of the hospitable gentleman from Camberley - did he
dance at the golf club? - remain elusive, though there seems to
have been a spate of marriages under that name in Surrey in the
latter part of the century. Presumably he was not involved in
them all.
#Post#: 26544--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 7, 2021, 3:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JCFC link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=2144.msg26509#msg26509
date=1612706295]
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=2144.msg26505#msg26505
date=1612704284]
> Glad I've been able to brighten up a drab grey weekend for
some of you. Malcolm Sinclair, Ray Lewis and Ray Biggar (a good
Surrey colleague in the 1970s) are indeed blameless. I will keep
the suspense going a little longer and say that the
drinks-buyer's last game on the FL was also the last game in the
FL for one of the participating clubs, although they have since
returned to the fold and are doing quite well at present. The
hater-of-linesmen was himself a linesman when he witnessed what
must rank as one of the biggest punch-ups ever seen at Wembley,
and that at a so-called charitable affray, sorry affair! ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
Actually the research has been surprisingly easy. The alcoholic
benefactor was the gentleman from the place of "mushroomy,
pine-woody evergreen smells" John Betjeman A Subaltern's
Love-song, Camberley. A gentleman who indeed my have had a Club
named after him. The hater of linos was the namesake of " a
very naughty boy " from South Croydon
[/quote]
The South Croydon naughty boy was actually a Bryan. His second
name was Maurice, what the L stood for remains unknown. He was
born in Dartford in 1932, where he subsequently married. He died
in Croydon in 1998.
The origins of the hospitable gentleman from Camberley - did he
dance at the golf club? - remain elusive, though there seems to
have been a spate of marriages under that name in Surrey in the
latter part of the century. Presumably he was not involved in
them all.
[/quote]
or did he just stay in the Hillman in the car park all evening
mesmerised by " the tilt of her nose and the chime of her
voice"?
#Post#: 26545--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 7, 2021, 3:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Encouraged by the two 'likes' to my earlier post, #47, may I
indulge myself with a reminiscence of this fine referee who
called me Professor. I was once out with him and gave a couple
of tight offsides and then a couple of disputed throw ins
against one team. One of their players shouted to me "you're
f**king useless lino" Loud blast on the whistle and the referee
calls this player over to him and gives him a public bollocking
along these lines. ' We'll have none of that talk here and that
goes for the lot of you. If anyone's going to say he's f**king
useless it'll be me...and he isn't... but what I've seen of you
this afternoon you are. Now, keep quiet and get on with it'
Much sniggering at the unfortunate player from team mates and
opposition and the situation defused. Now, I could never get
away with expressing myself in a match in that manner but it
taught me how to read a situation and know how to get control
over it.
This referee's dear wife was a great baker and he used to bring
a tin into the changing room full of scones, jam and lemon curd
tarts which we enjoyed at half time with our tea and after the
match. Such lovely people, long gone now, God rest their good
souls.
#Post#: 26547--------------------------------------------------
Re: Role Models
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: February 7, 2021, 3:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> Encouraged by the two 'likes' to my earlier post, #47, may I
indulge myself with a reminiscence of this fine referee who
called me Professor. I was once out with him and gave a couple
of tight offsides and then a couple of disputed throw ins
against one team. One of their players shouted to me "you're
f**king useless lino" Loud blast on the whistle and the referee
calls this player over to him and gives him a public bollocking
along these lines. ' We'll have none of that talk here and that
goes for the lot of you. If anyone's going to say he's f**king
useless it'll be me...and he isn't... but what I've seen of you
this afternoon you are. Now, keep quiet and get on with it'
Much sniggering at the unfortunate player from team mates and
opposition and the situation defused. Now, I could never get
away with expressing myself in a match in that manner but it
taught me how to read a situation and know how to get control
over it.
>
> This referee's dear wife was a great baker and he used to
bring a tin into the changing room full of scones, jam and lemon
curd tarts which we enjoyed at half time with our tea and after
the match. Such lovely people, long gone now, God rest their
good souls.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sounds a great character and I have to admit that, because I
officiated in a league that I used to play in, I also used to
have some good craic with players I knew along similar lines to
the referee you mention.
I think that the game has changed so much these days, however,
there are still oen or two characters around who I watch up her
when I have the chance and we always enjoy a good chat after the
game.
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