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#Post#: 26281--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: February 2, 2021, 4:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Don't worry too much about these decisions because you can be
sure that IFAB will be along in another couple of months with
more changes to TLOG to make it more acceptable to all those who
desire no physical contact.
All of this, aided and abetted by VAR, will certainly lead to a
sterile game that is not worth watching at the top level,
however, the players will be protected which is all that matters
these days.
I had a thought earlier tonight about the use of excessive force
which is penalised. Are we not talking about two grown people,
who may be of different stature, challenging for a ball and one
happens to be stronger than the other? It's not as though one is
using a hammer or something to attack the other player with
excessive force, he is just using strength as I used to do, even
though I am only 5ft 7inches tall but built like a brick
outhouse. Just another thought on where the game is headed.
#Post#: 26282--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
Date: February 2, 2021, 4:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Irishref1985 link ---
>
> [quote author=Jackinthebox link=topic=2139.msg26275#msg26275
date=1612303526]
> [quote author=Irishref1985 link=topic=2139.msg26273#msg26273
date=1612303240]
> And more rubbish
>
--- End Quote ---
How's it rubbish? Once the penalty has been given it had to be a
red card.
[/quote]
it wasn't even a penalty for crying out loud. the defender tries
to get out of the way. Absolute incompetence from Graham Scott.
Brutal
[/quote]
I think you can argue it both ways. There was definitely an arm
that appears to make contact with Martial, however your
assertion that he was trying to put the brakes on and stop could
also mean his arm was outstretched.
It’s a very soft decision but unfortunately it is DOGSO and the
red has to come out.
#Post#: 26283--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: February 2, 2021, 4:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree that it does seem unfair that an 'accidental' foul
carries the same RC punishment as a deliberate trip or shirt
pull with no attempt to play the ball. If the law was changed
however, I suspect defenders would learn to be as devious as
attackers, in the former's case of trying to con the referee
that they were trying to avoid a challenge and that the attacker
created the contact.
The offside Southampton goal looked incredibly tight. Frankly
I've no idea from what I saw whether it was or it wasn't. The
first half United 'penalty' that was retracted again was
marginal. I was convinced at first contact was on the line but
even the pundits changed their minds.
Those 3 decisions took up a lot of time though.
#Post#: 26285--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: ajb95
Date: February 2, 2021, 4:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> I agree that it does seem unfair that an 'accidental' foul
carries the same RC punishment as a deliberate trip or shirt
pull with no attempt to play the ball. If the law was changed
however, I suspect defenders would learn to be as devious as
attackers, in the former's case of trying to con the referee
that they were trying to avoid a challenge and that the attacker
created the contact.
>
> The offside Southampton goal looked incredibly tight. Frankly
I've no idea from what I saw whether it was or it wasn't. The
first half United 'penalty' that was retracted again was
marginal. I was convinced at first contact was on the line but
even the pundits changed their minds.
>
> Those 3 decisions took up a lot of time though.
>
--- End Quote ---
So begs the question as to why the law was changed in the first
place?
#Post#: 26287--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: Leggy
Date: February 3, 2021, 1:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> Don't worry too much about these decisions because you can be
sure that IFAB will be along in another couple of months with
more changes to TLOG to make it more acceptable to all those who
desire no physical contact.
> All of this, aided and abetted by VAR, will certainly lead to
a sterile game that is not worth watching at the top level,
however, the players will be protected which is all that matters
these days.
>
> I had a thought earlier tonight about the use of excessive
force which is penalised. Are we not talking about two grown
people, who may be of different stature, challenging for a ball
and one happens to be stronger than the other? It's not as
though one is using a hammer or something to attack the other
player with excessive force, he is just using strength as I used
to do, even though I am only 5ft 7inches tall but built like a
brick outhouse. Just another thought on where the game is
headed.
>
--- End Quote ---
The "excessive force" to which you refer is the studded boot of
a fast moving force of around 65-85kg making contact with an
opponent's body without any care for the outcome. This is not
about eradicating physical contact from the game but it is about
players having to use their judgement as to when - and when not
- to make a challenge. The Southampton player last evening made
a bad judgement call, he endangered the safety of an opponent
and was correctly dismissed.
Its all very well looking back nostalgically to the days of
Norman Hunter, Ron Harris, Tommy Smith et al but the game was
entirely different then. The players were slower and their
physical stature and fitness was entirely different. Force =
Mass x Acceleration. The difference today in both "Mass" and
"Acceleration" means that the "Force" with which players make
contact on opponents is much greater than in earlier eras.
That is why the definition of serious foul play had to change,
and that is why it has changed.
#Post#: 26289--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: carrowman
Date: February 3, 2021, 2:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TheThingFromLewes link ---
>
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=2139.msg26278#msg26278
date=1612304192]
> [quote author=dave26 link=topic=2139.msg26277#msg26277
date=1612303966]
> I really disagree with the laws how on earth does it make
sense that you can give a penalty away and only get a YC for
attempting to play the ball and yet give a penalty away and
receive a RC for trying to stop committing a foul bendarek and
Luisa are perfect examples of that nonsense law
>
--- End Quote ---
Totally agree. Not much contact if any- how on earth can the
LOTG deem that to be a red card?? Common sense says give a
penalty and move on.
Very harsh on Southampton. Was never offside either!
IMO 4 KMI - 1 correct and 3 wrong.
[/quote]
I was really puzzled by the offside... surely the blue line
refers to Soton and the red line Man Utd!
The blue line was clearly behind the red line on the VAR
screen.... yet it flashed up offside.
Was that just me or did others see the same thing?
[/quote]
It seems to be different colours each game. At no time do they
say Red is Manu or Blue is Southampton as logic would dictate.
You would have thought there would be just two colours used for
all VAR, say Red for attack and Blue for defence or is that too
simple?
#Post#: 26293--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: Leggy
Date: February 3, 2021, 2:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: carrowman link ---
>
> [quote author=TheThingFromLewes
link=topic=2139.msg26280#msg26280 date=1612304601]
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=2139.msg26278#msg26278
date=1612304192]
> [quote author=dave26 link=topic=2139.msg26277#msg26277
date=1612303966]
> I really disagree with the laws how on earth does it make
sense that you can give a penalty away and only get a YC for
attempting to play the ball and yet give a penalty away and
receive a RC for trying to stop committing a foul bendarek and
Luisa are perfect examples of that nonsense law
>
--- End Quote ---
Totally agree. Not much contact if any- how on earth can the
LOTG deem that to be a red card?? Common sense says give a
penalty and move on.
Very harsh on Southampton. Was never offside either!
IMO 4 KMI - 1 correct and 3 wrong.
[/quote]
I was really puzzled by the offside... surely the blue line
refers to Soton and the red line Man Utd!
The blue line was clearly behind the red line on the VAR
screen.... yet it flashed up offside.
Was that just me or did others see the same thing?
[/quote]
It seems to be different colours each game. At no time do they
say Red is Manu or Blue is Southampton as logic would dictate.
You would have thought there would be just two colours used for
all VAR, say Red for attack and Blue for defence or is that too
simple?
[/quote]
Too sensible to ever see the light of day.
#Post#: 26295--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: February 3, 2021, 4:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=2139.msg26281#msg26281
date=1612304827]
> Don't worry too much about these decisions because you can be
sure that IFAB will be along in another couple of months with
more changes to TLOG to make it more acceptable to all those who
desire no physical contact.
> All of this, aided and abetted by VAR, will certainly lead to
a sterile game that is not worth watching at the top level,
however, the players will be protected which is all that matters
these days.
>
> I had a thought earlier tonight about the use of excessive
force which is penalised. Are we not talking about two grown
people, who may be of different stature, challenging for a ball
and one happens to be stronger than the other? It's not as
though one is using a hammer or something to attack the other
player with excessive force, he is just using strength as I used
to do, even though I am only 5ft 7inches tall but built like a
brick outhouse. Just another thought on where the game is
headed.
>
--- End Quote ---
The "excessive force" to which you refer is the studded boot of
a fast moving force of around 65-85kg making contact with an
opponent's body without any care for the outcome. This is not
about eradicating physical contact from the game but it is about
players having to use their judgement as to when - and when not
- to make a challenge. The Southampton player last evening made
a bad judgement call, he endangered the safety of an opponent
and was correctly dismissed.
Its all very well looking back nostalgically to the days of
Norman Hunter, Ron Harris, Tommy Smith et al but the game was
entirely different then. The players were slower and their
physical stature and fitness was entirely different. Force =
Mass x Acceleration. The difference today in both "Mass" and
"Acceleration" means that the "Force" with which players make
contact on opponents is much greater than in earlier eras.
That is why the definition of serious foul play had to change,
and that is why it has changed.
[/quote]
I was not arguing about the challenge last night because that
was a sending off offence at any time that I played and
officiated.
I am talking about the many occasions when a player wins the
ball fair and square but is then deemed to have use excessive
force, mostly because his opponent rolls around on the pitch for
twenty minutes, carefully keeping an eye on the officials to
ensure that they have taken notice, and then he miraculously
recovers to complete the match without further problems.
Yes, the game has certainly changed, particularly at the top
level, however, I very much doubt that players make contact with
more force these days than they did previously.
#Post#: 26296--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: nemesis
Date: February 3, 2021, 4:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jackinthebox link ---
>
> [quote author=Irishref1985 link=topic=2139.msg26276#msg26276
date=1612303754]
> [quote author=Jackinthebox link=topic=2139.msg26275#msg26275
date=1612303526]
> [quote author=Irishref1985 link=topic=2139.msg26273#msg26273
date=1612303240]
> And more rubbish
>
--- End Quote ---
How's it rubbish? Once the penalty has been given it had to be a
red card.
[/quote]
it wasn't even a penalty for crying out loud. the defender tries
to get out of the way. Absolute incompetence from Graham Scott.
Brutal
[/quote]
The penalty might be deemed soft by some people but there was
contact without the intent to win the ball so can see why it was
given and why the RC was issued.
The problem like with many things in football is the law.
Bednarek tried to get out the way to avoid contact with Martial
but gets penalised for trying to avoid making contact if he had
of slid in on the ground knowing he probably wasn't going to get
the ball he wouldn't of been sent off which seems a little
unfair for me.
[/quote]
aaaaargh ..... here we go again.
There is nothing in the Laws to say you can't touch an opponent.
It is not (yet) a non-contact sport.
Did he trip him, did he push him, did he kick him ??? I don't
care if he touched him.
#Post#: 26297--------------------------------------------------
Re: M DEAN - Man U v Southampton
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: February 3, 2021, 4:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: dave26 link ---
>
> I really disagree with the laws how on earth does it make
sense that you can give a penalty away and only get a YC for
attempting to play the ball and yet give a penalty away and
receive a RC for trying to stop committing a foul bendarek and
Luisa are perfect examples of that nonsense law
>
--- End Quote ---
Bednarek and David Luiz did not receive red cards for trying to
stop committing fouls. They received them for failing to avoid
making contact with opponents who had obvious goalscoring
opportunities. The contacts were careless and therefore fouls.
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