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#Post#: 26020--------------------------------------------------
West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: January 26, 2021, 5:11 pm
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Given the score line I suppose it doesn't matter but for City's
second goal Sian Massey raised her flag to indicate an offside,
a number of West Brom players for want of a better phrase, 'half
stop', Chris Kavanagh delayed the whistle, City score, Kavanagh
gives offside, VAR intervene and indicate the goal is onside and
should be awarded.
I have a few thoughts.
1. It was a very tight call and I can see how the AR got it
wrong, that is not a major mistake in and of itself imo
2. Massey should not have raised the flag, I say that given what
I have seen this season, imo they (PL ARs) have kept the flag
down in far less promising scoring situations
3. Chris Kavanagh in one sense did very well to delay the
whistle and allow for a good goal to be scored, the whole point
of the game
4. A more cynical side of me says that from a selfish point of
view, the officials could have caused a lot less controversy had
Kavanagh simply blown for the offside, I doubt anyone would have
commented.
Ultimately you have to play to the whistle and I think Kavanagh
has done the technically correct and perhaps entirely correct
thing. I have sympathy for Massey, I can see why she raised the
flag and she looked visibly frustrated after the incident. Just
goes to show even the very best can make mistakes.
#Post#: 26022--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 26, 2021, 5:56 pm
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--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> Given the score line I suppose it doesn't matter but for
City's second goal Sian Massey raised her flag to indicate an
offside, a number of West Brom players for want of a better
phrase, 'half stop', Chris Kavanagh delayed the whistle, City
score, Kavanagh gives offside, VAR intervene and indicate the
goal is onside and should be awarded.
>
> I have a few thoughts.
>
> 1. It was a very tight call and I can see how the AR got it
wrong, that is not a major mistake in and of itself imo
> 2. Massey should not have raised the flag, I say that given
what I have seen this season, imo they (PL ARs) have kept the
flag down in far less promising scoring situations
> 3. Chris Kavanagh in one sense did very well to delay the
whistle and allow for a good goal to be scored, the whole point
of the game
> 4. A more cynical side of me says that from a selfish point of
view, the officials could have caused a lot less controversy had
Kavanagh simply blown for the offside, I doubt anyone would have
commented.
>
> Ultimately you have to play to the whistle and I think
Kavanagh has done the technically correct and perhaps entirely
correct thing. I have sympathy for Massey, I can see why she
raised the flag and she looked visibly frustrated after the
incident. Just goes to show even the very best can make
mistakes.
>
--- End Quote ---
A very fair summary with which I entirely agree. I think Ms
Massey-Ellis has made a major, and uncharacteristic, error. Not
in calling the offside, it was incredibly tight and may well
have looked offside in the split second she had to see it but an
AR of her experience should not have raised her flag until the
phase of play was over; in this case the ball being in the net.
Then VAR could have checked and over-ruled her flag and the goal
be awarded. Kavanagh the referee is in no way to blame; he
correctly did not whistle on seeing the flag but waited to see
the outcome of that phase of play.
#Post#: 26026--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: flipmode
Date: January 26, 2021, 7:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
> A very fair summary with which I entirely agree. I think Ms
Massey-Ellis has made a major, and uncharacteristic, error. Not
in calling the offside, it was incredibly tight and may well
have looked offside in the split second she had to see it but an
AR of her experience should not have raised her flag until the
phase of play was over; in this case the ball being in the net.
Then VAR could have checked and over-ruled her flag and the goal
be awarded. Kavanagh the referee is in no way to blame; he
correctly did not whistle on seeing the flag but waited to see
the outcome of that phase of play.
>
--- End Quote ---
Completely agree. You could also argue that VAR did its job and
purpose in overturning the initial incorrect call from Sian
Massey. No blame can be laid at Chris Kavanagh for me.
#Post#: 26029--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Beryl
Date: January 27, 2021, 1:58 am
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This is prime example of what should be made clear from day 1 at
all levels of football
The flag, exists as a communication tool between AR and referee
The flag should not be regarded as anything to do with the
players.
“ ref, flags up”. “ yes I can see it, thats a signal for me
though, not you”
The flag communicates, the ball is out of play and the restart
goes to xxxxx
The flag communicates, imo thats a free kick this direction
The flag communicates, imo blue should be penalised for
offside..
The flag communicates, substitution
The flag is a signal to the referee, 9 times our of 10 as
routine, the ref and AR will be in tandem
Time 10 is that clash ball that the referee has the better view
on, or, the referee has deemed blue 9 is not involved in the
play, or ball has broken to defenders with clear opportunity to
continue play so the game is not required to stop.
Of course at elite level we have the comms and VAR.
The mindset throughout all levels should be clear, the flag is a
signal from AR to referee.
#Post#: 26034--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: anje-roo
Date: January 27, 2021, 4:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sympathy for Sian who has made very few errors IMHO (admittedly
based on TV highlights shows rather than proper statistical
evidence). But it's not the first time that premature flagging
by ARs has caused players to forget the golden maxim of "play to
the whistle". So, if we continue to see technological advances
at the elite end of the professional game, is there a good
reason why 19th century technology continues into the 21st
century? Do away with flags & allow the officials to communicate
through their headsets. Especially in the likely continued
absence of crowds. Flags still needed at lower levels. There'll
probably be some good physiological/psychological data which
indicate that officials' critical senses (sight & hearing -
though I'd argue that intuition should also feature) put visual
ahead of verbal. Perhaps it's the sort of experiment that could
be trialled in something like the PL Reserve League.
#Post#: 26035--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: January 27, 2021, 5:38 am
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I hear what you say anje-roo but cannot agree with it. Flags are
needed because they give a clear indication to the ref, players
and fans (who will return one day) that something untoward has
taken place, such as ball out of play or a foul. This would not
happen if the officials are relying on the comms system instead
and would simply be unacceptable at any level. Sorry anje-roo
but that is my view.
#Post#: 26036--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 27, 2021, 5:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> I hear what you say anje-roo but cannot agree with it. Flags
are needed because they give a clear indication to the ref,
players and fans (who will return one day) that something
untoward has taken place, such as ball out of play or a foul.
This would not happen if the officials are relying on the comms
system instead and would simply be unacceptable at any level.
Sorry anje-roo but that is my view.
>
--- End Quote ---
My view also
#Post#: 26040--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: January 27, 2021, 9:56 am
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Flags are OK provided that it is understood, by players and
fans, that they do not have the same status as the referee's
whistle. In which case it would seem better to me that the flag
should be used at the moment the AR thinks there is an offside.
Play then continues, at the referee's discretion, and once the
flag has been acknowledged by the referee it can be lowered as
play develops. VAR is alerted to the possible offside at this
moment and can start to examine the footage, read the tea
leaves, toss a coin or whatever other means of divination they
choose. If they reach a conclusion before there is a break in
play VAR can advise the referee who can act accordingly. If
there is a break in play before the VAR processes are complete
then; if the break is clearly advantageous to the attacking team
the VAR decision can be delivered before play resumes, if the
break is to the advantage of the defending team then play
restarts n0rmally. That way it is clearer that the flag is not
the end of play but simply an indicator of a possible offside.
If the offside is obvious then the referee can still halt play
on the flag, but where tight decisions are involved play can
continue.
#Post#: 26041--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: January 27, 2021, 10:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> Flags are OK provided that it is understood, by players and
fans, that they do not have the same status as the referee's
whistle. In which case it would seem better to me that the flag
should be used at the moment the AR thinks there is an offside.
Play then continues, at the referee's discretion, and once the
flag has been acknowledged by the referee it can be lowered as
play develops. VAR is alerted to the possible offside at this
moment and can start to examine the footage, read the tea
leaves, toss a coin or whatever other means of divination they
choose. If they reach a conclusion before there is a break in
play VAR can advise the referee who can act accordingly. If
there is a break in play before the VAR processes are complete
then; if the break is clearly advantageous to the attacking team
the VAR decision can be delivered before play resumes, if the
break is to the advantage of the defending team then play
restarts n0rmally. That way it is clearer that the flag is not
the end of play but simply an indicator of a possible offside.
If the offside is obvious then the referee can still halt play
on the flag, but where tight decisions are involved play can
continue.
>
--- End Quote ---
This incident highlighted the fact that the PL is playing to a
different interpretation of TLOG than the rest of football in
the UK.
If this had been the Millwall v Watford game, Accrington Stanley
v Hull or Cheltenham v Oldham I am 95% certain that, once the
flag went up, the referee would have blown for offside, the
decision accepted and the game restarted with a free kick.
After the match, the decision may have been discussed, however,
that would have been that.
We now have a situation where the AR is chastised for making a
decision which upset the WBA players and Management and which
the media will drag up ad nauseam, particularly if Sian even
makes one little mistake. The bottom line though is that the
whistle did not sound, therefore, you continue playing ---this
is still the one constant ----for the present ----- until they
decide to alter that as well.
#Post#: 26042--------------------------------------------------
Re: West Brom v Man City Kavanagh/Massey
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 27, 2021, 11:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=2119.msg26040#msg26040
date=1611762977]
> Flags are OK provided that it is understood, by players and
fans, that they do not have the same status as the referee's
whistle. In which case it would seem better to me that the flag
should be used at the moment the AR thinks there is an offside.
Play then continues, at the referee's discretion, and once the
flag has been acknowledged by the referee it can be lowered as
play develops. VAR is alerted to the possible offside at this
moment and can start to examine the footage, read the tea
leaves, toss a coin or whatever other means of divination they
choose. If they reach a conclusion before there is a break in
play VAR can advise the referee who can act accordingly. If
there is a break in play before the VAR processes are complete
then; if the break is clearly advantageous to the attacking team
the VAR decision can be delivered before play resumes, if the
break is to the advantage of the defending team then play
restarts n0rmally. That way it is clearer that the flag is not
the end of play but simply an indicator of a possible offside.
If the offside is obvious then the referee can still halt play
on the flag, but where tight decisions are involved play can
continue.
>
--- End Quote ---
This incident highlighted the fact that the PL is playing to a
different interpretation of TLOG than the rest of football in
the UK.
If this had been the Millwall v Watford game, Accrington Stanley
v Hull or Cheltenham v Oldham I am 95% certain that, once the
flag went up, the referee would have blown for offside, the
decision accepted and the game restarted with a free kick.
After the match, the decision may have been discussed, however,
that would have been that.
We now have a situation where the AR is chastised for making a
decision which upset the WBA players and Management and which
the media will drag up ad nauseam, particularly if Sian even
makes one little mistake. The bottom line though is that the
whistle did not sound, therefore, you continue playing ---this
is still the one constant ----for the present ----- until they
decide to alter that as well.
[/quote]
Good point made. I think you can try and drum into players as
much as you like that you play to the whistle and not to the
flag because the flag is there to aid the referee in control of
the match. However there is an almost Pavlovian reaction by
players when they see a flag raised because for so long it has
been seen as a virtue and therefore practised to sound the
whistle as soon as possible after the flag was raised. Indeed,
referees used to pride themselves on the shortest time elapsing
between whistle and flag and being late to whistle, or wave the
flag down, was seen as a minus point. Therefore it is well
established in the memory bank of many players that a flag will
bring about a whistle swiftly afterwards. Such received
behaviour will have to be unlearned but there will be more messy
situations until it is.
I think Sian Massey-Ellis is a very fine AR, one of the best.
However she is human not divine and therefore, like everyone
else there ever has been or ever will be, is prone to making the
occasional error.
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