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#Post#: 21065--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: Leggy
Date: September 21, 2020, 5:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=1773.msg21045#msg21045
date=1600638802]
> At least it has made handball more consistent. There used to
be lots of discussion about whether an incident such as Trent
Alexander-Arnold's handling last season agI do find it easier to
judge a handball offence now, even if I don't personally agree.
>
> It's basically gone in the PL from a player getting a lot of
the benefit of the doubt if the ball hit their hand to them
being given very little. A lot was required for handball in
England previously, but now if the ball hits your hand it's
likely to be penalised if VAR is in use unless your hand is very
close to your body.
>
--- End Quote ---
Perhaps it makes it more consistent if the offence happens in
the penalty area, however, there were several instances of
handball, similar to those leading to penalties in the games
discussed, which were committed in general play and these were
not penalised.
The question which then arises is are we playing to different
laws in the penalty area to those used on the rest of the field
because some are covered by VAR but others are not?
[/quote]
We are, because VAR has the ability to forensically review (from
several angles) and spot contact that cannot be conclusively
determined using the naked eye from a set position (be that a
good or not-so-good one). And VAR is only used to determine
potential penalty offences. As a result we get more handball
"offences" in the penalty area than pretty much anywhere else of
the Field of Play.
#Post#: 21066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: September 21, 2020, 6:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=1773.msg21060#msg21060
date=1600677017]
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=1773.msg21045#msg21045
date=1600638802]
> At least it has made handball more consistent. There used to
be lots of discussion about whether an incident such as Trent
Alexander-Arnold's handling last season agI do find it easier to
judge a handball offence now, even if I don't personally agree.
>
> It's basically gone in the PL from a player getting a lot of
the benefit of the doubt if the ball hit their hand to them
being given very little. A lot was required for handball in
England previously, but now if the ball hits your hand it's
likely to be penalised if VAR is in use unless your hand is very
close to your body.
>
--- End Quote ---
Perhaps it makes it more consistent if the offence happens in
the penalty area, however, there were several instances of
handball, similar to those leading to penalties in the games
discussed, which were committed in general play and these were
not penalised.
The question which then arises is are we playing to different
laws in the penalty area to those used on the rest of the field
because some are covered by VAR but others are not?
[/quote]
We are, because VAR has the ability to forensically review (from
several angles) and spot contact that cannot be conclusively
determined using the naked eye from a set position (be that a
good or not-so-good one). And VAR is only used to determine
potential penalty offences. As a result we get more handball
"offences" in the penalty area than pretty much anywhere else of
the Field of Play.
[/quote]
On the basis of that, my next question, as someone who has
played the game and officiated at semi-professional level since
1965 and in more recent years has done quite a lot of mentoring
for young officials, is do you instruct young referees that
handball is to be viewed differently in the penalty area to
anywhere else on the field.
That is what the use of VAR seems to be saying, therefore, IFAB
need to introduce that interpretation into their instructions so
that we are all clear that handball may not be handball if it
occurs outside of the penalty area.
#Post#: 21067--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: September 21, 2020, 7:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
IFAB diagram
[img]
HTML https://dail.me.uk/____impro/1/onewebmedia/Screenshot_2020-09-21%20LoG%202020-21_changes%20and%20clarifications%20ENG%20pages%20-%20105743_070420_LoG_2020_21_changes_and_clarificatio%5B...%5D.png?etag=W%2F%2274a3-5f68846a%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fpng&ignoreAspectRatio&resize=169%2B201&extract=0%2B0%2B169%2B200[/img]
Two points:
1) Not given handball in Arsenal v West Ham game seemed to me to
hit a significant element in the red zone. Difficult for the
referee but less so for VAR. (Shirt sleeves generally are a bit
longer than the IFAB green zone)
2) Offside presumably now upper arm at shoulder rather than
"armpit" - hence Arsenal first goal which looked to me to be
just offside on "armpit" ruling looked more offside on
"shoulder" ruling.
#Post#: 21072--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: September 21, 2020, 7:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: robbie_scouse link ---
>
> They’d be as well starting two yards behind the line if this
is the precedent!!
>
--- End Quote ---
That wouldn't do them any good either. They have to be on or
above the goal line; behind is not acceptable. In fact I had to
warn a goalkeeper of that very fact when he was about to face a
penalty in my game this weekend.
#Post#: 21073--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: bmb
Date: September 21, 2020, 7:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=1773.msg21042#msg21042
date=1600634899]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=1773.msg21031#msg21031
date=1600624529]
> His arm was out from the body. The ball hit it, that will
always be given as a penalty under the new law.
>
> Don't agree with it personally, but the officials can only
follow the current law and we are now seeing handball penalties
given that wouldn't have been given last season. Everyone just
needs to get used to it as it won't be changing.
>
--- End Quote ---
Who is making these laws?? I know it’s IFAB on advice from FIFA
but is it lead by ex referees etc.??
Surely someone with a brain cell has got to be looking at this
and can’t be happy.
I know most football fans aren’t and football is slowly losing a
lot of interest!
[/quote]
Something I've said before, laws are made by people that haven't
played football to any kind of level. They probably think that
you can run with your arms pinned by your side.
But once the laws are made all referees can do is apply them.
[/quote]
IFAB is made up of David Elleray, Ray Ellingham, Neale Barry,
Jonathan Fort, Massimo Busacca, Collina, Patrick Nelson, Mark
Bullingham, Dirk Schlemmer, William Campbell, Lukas Brud and
Arsene Wenger to name but a few.
#Post#: 21074--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: JCFC
Date: September 21, 2020, 9:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If these are your new bedroom wall pin-up boys, you would have
been better sticking to David Allison.
#Post#: 21091--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: PhiltheRef
Date: September 21, 2020, 12:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
On Sunday I was asked by a Goalkeeper what I needed from her
positionally when facing a penalty.
She complied with Law AND saved it
#Post#: 21100--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: robbie_scouse
Date: September 21, 2020, 5:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> IFAB diagram
>
[img]
HTML https://dail.me.uk/____impro/1/onewebmedia/Screenshot_2020-09-21%20LoG%202020-21_changes%20and%20clarifications%20ENG%20pages%20-%20105743_070420_LoG_2020_21_changes_and_clarificatio%5B...%5D.png?etag=W%2F%2274a3-5f68846a%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fpng&ignoreAspectRatio&resize=169%2B201&extract=0%2B0%2B169%2B200[/img]
>
> Two points:
> 1) Not given handball in Arsenal v West Ham game seemed to me
to hit a significant element in the red zone. Difficult for the
referee but less so for VAR. (Shirt sleeves generally are a bit
longer than the IFAB green zone)
> 2) Offside presumably now upper arm at shoulder rather than
"armpit" - hence Arsenal first goal which looked to me to be
just offside on "armpit" ruling looked more offside on
"shoulder" ruling.
>
--- End Quote ---
Just use your right arm and you’ll be fine then 🤣
#Post#: 21103--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: lincs22
Date: September 22, 2020, 2:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: dave26 link ---
>
> Average performance by Atkinson imo , no complaints about the
result palace deserved it but the biggest decision was the
poorest I’ve seen in many a year step forward VAR Jon Moss to
have that penalty retaken for De Gea being the slightest margin
off his line is really poor and embarrassing
>
--- End Quote ---
And what allowance is made in cricket for a front foot no-ball?
A fraction of an inch over and its a no-ball!
Same with GLT, a fraction of a inch over - its a goal.
While we may not like the new interpretation and the use of VAR
on this matter, it is correct in Law and that what IFAB wants!
#Post#: 21104--------------------------------------------------
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
DIR By: ajb95
Date: September 22, 2020, 2:33 am
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Yep IFAB and FIFA are ruining football at all levels!
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