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#Post#: 19412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: rustyref
Date: July 23, 2020, 1:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Maltese Falcon link ---
>
> Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether
there is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National
List Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically,
from personal experience, at Level 3.
>
> At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
>
> It's harsh, but IMO fair
>
--- End Quote ---
Problem is you can't do that with full time employees. Imagine
if you went to your annual review and you were told that you
were being dismissed because you'd only been in the top 60% of
all employees for three years, you'd be straight to HR.
#Post#: 19422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: JohnCoyle
Date: July 24, 2020, 4:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TVOS link ---
>
> [quote author=JohnCoyle link=topic=1641.msg19285#msg19285
date=1595233950]
> [quote author=DublinRef link=topic=1641.msg19246#msg19246
date=1595162395]
> Welcome DBLTFC, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your first
post.
>
> In particular when you say a "job for life" I think this is a
real issue, of course we need the steady eddies but for me there
is simply nowhere near enough churn at the national level. I
know in some countries they operate an automatic
promotion/demotion system based on the merit table for that
year, is such a system used at any level in the English game?
>
--- End Quote ---
As someone who watches most of my live football at League One
and (occasionally) League Two levels, it's one of my biggest
bugbears. There are a number of NL referees whom you know are
going to produce, at best, an adequate performance and at worst
are likely to ruin your afternoon. (Anyone who watches football
at my level will know who I am talking about).
The age-limit used to deal with a lot of this, especially when
it became more flexible so that very good referees could have an
extra season or two. Personally, I think if a NL referee hasn't
managed to reach SG2 after a certain number of years they should
stand down from the NL, although for that to work properly you
would need a greater degree of churn at SG2 and above than
exists now.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I can’t agree with your last point at all.
There will be a number of NL referees who are in good jobs away
from refereeing and couldn’t afford to take the risk of losing
all that for a SG2 contract. Are you saying they should be
penalised for that?
It’s an often missed point that those on SG2 had to be available
and prepared to forego their other careers in order to join this
list.
It explains why they aren’t necessarily the next best group of
referees, but instead are the next best of available referees.
In my job, I’ve never gone for any form of promotion as I’m
happy as I am, especially as it leaves me with more free time
for outside interests than I would have otherwise. Should I have
been moved aside by now, at age 51?
Must admit I’ve seen only a few lower league officials who have
spoiled my afternoon, particularly when they failed to clamp
down on the spoiling tactics used by the likes of Darren
Ferguson and Steve Evans. Otherwise it has mainly been players
who have spoiled my afternoon!
[/quote]
Two points really- on SG2 I wouldn't have proceeded as the PGMOL
chose to do. SG2 should be composed of referees who have a
decent chance of being promoted to SG1 within five years. Making
them full-time was a huge error because you ended up with
referees who were willing to leave full-time jobs outside the
game rather than the best referees outside SG1. Of those on SG2
now the vast majority are unlikely to ever reach SG1. Those who
are tend to be like Jones, England and Brooks who have only
joined the NL within the last five years or so.
Secondly, shouldn't the majority of referees who join the NL
aspire to being SG1 and even FIFA officials? I'd guess if they
did then we wouldn't have so few referees of genuine
international calibre. You will always get some referees who
reach the NL comparatively late in their career. For them, a
maximum of 10 years on the list should be adequate (and a lot
more then they would have got in the time of a mandatory
retirement age). I realise my focus was on the NL, but really
the problem is the lack of churn from top down.
#Post#: 19423--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: ajb95
Date: July 24, 2020, 5:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JohnCoyle link ---
>
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=1641.msg19288#msg19288
date=1595234754]
> [quote author=JohnCoyle link=topic=1641.msg19285#msg19285
date=1595233950]
> [quote author=DublinRef link=topic=1641.msg19246#msg19246
date=1595162395]
> Welcome DBLTFC, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your first
post.
>
> In particular when you say a "job for life" I think this is a
real issue, of course we need the steady eddies but for me there
is simply nowhere near enough churn at the national level. I
know in some countries they operate an automatic
promotion/demotion system based on the merit table for that
year, is such a system used at any level in the English game?
>
--- End Quote ---
As someone who watches most of my live football at League One
and (occasionally) League Two levels, it's one of my biggest
bugbears. There are a number of NL referees whom you know are
going to produce, at best, an adequate performance and at worst
are likely to ruin your afternoon. (Anyone who watches football
at my level will know who I am talking about).
The age-limit used to deal with a lot of this, especially when
it became more flexible so that very good referees could have an
extra season or two. Personally, I think if a NL referee hasn't
managed to reach SG2 after a certain number of years they should
stand down from the NL, although for that to work properly you
would need a greater degree of churn at SG2 and above than
exists now.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I can’t agree with your last point at all.
There will be a number of NL referees who are in good jobs away
from refereeing and couldn’t afford to take the risk of losing
all that for a SG2 contract. Are you saying they should be
penalised for that?
It’s an often missed point that those on SG2 had to be available
and prepared to forego their other careers in order to join this
list.
It explains why they aren’t necessarily the next best group of
referees, but instead are the next best of available referees.
In my job, I’ve never gone for any form of promotion as I’m
happy as I am, especially as it leaves me with more free time
for outside interests than I would have otherwise. Should I have
been moved aside by now, at age 51?
Must admit I’ve seen only a few lower league officials who have
spoiled my afternoon, particularly when they failed to clamp
down on the spoiling tactics used by the likes of Darren
Ferguson and Steve Evans. Otherwise it has mainly been players
who have spoiled my afternoon!
[/quote]
Two points really- on SG2 I wouldn't have proceeded as the PGMOL
chose to do. SG2 should be composed of referees who have a
decent chance of being promoted to SG1 within five years. Making
them full-time was a huge error because you ended up with
referees who were willing to leave full-time jobs outside the
game rather than the best referees outside SG1. Of those on SG2
now the vast majority are unlikely to ever reach SG1. Those who
are tend to be like Jones, England and Brooks who have only
joined the NL within the last five years or so.
Secondly, shouldn't the majority of referees who join the NL
aspire to being SG1 and even FIFA officials? I'd guess if they
did then we wouldn't have so few referees of genuine
international calibre. You will always get some referees who
reach the NL comparatively late in their career. For them, a
maximum of 10 years on the list should be adequate (and a lot
more then they would have got in the time of a mandatory
retirement age). I realise my focus was on the NL, but really
the problem is the lack of churn from top down.
[/quote]
An excellent post and one I wholeheartedly agree with!
#Post#: 19425--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: TVOS
Date: July 24, 2020, 7:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JohnCoyle link ---
>
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=1641.msg19288#msg19288
date=1595234754]
> [quote author=JohnCoyle link=topic=1641.msg19285#msg19285
date=1595233950]
> [quote author=DublinRef link=topic=1641.msg19246#msg19246
date=1595162395]
> Welcome DBLTFC, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your first
post.
>
> In particular when you say a "job for life" I think this is a
real issue, of course we need the steady eddies but for me there
is simply nowhere near enough churn at the national level. I
know in some countries they operate an automatic
promotion/demotion system based on the merit table for that
year, is such a system used at any level in the English game?
>
--- End Quote ---
As someone who watches most of my live football at League One
and (occasionally) League Two levels, it's one of my biggest
bugbears. There are a number of NL referees whom you know are
going to produce, at best, an adequate performance and at worst
are likely to ruin your afternoon. (Anyone who watches football
at my level will know who I am talking about).
The age-limit used to deal with a lot of this, especially when
it became more flexible so that very good referees could have an
extra season or two. Personally, I think if a NL referee hasn't
managed to reach SG2 after a certain number of years they should
stand down from the NL, although for that to work properly you
would need a greater degree of churn at SG2 and above than
exists now.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I can’t agree with your last point at all.
There will be a number of NL referees who are in good jobs away
from refereeing and couldn’t afford to take the risk of losing
all that for a SG2 contract. Are you saying they should be
penalised for that?
It’s an often missed point that those on SG2 had to be available
and prepared to forego their other careers in order to join this
list.
It explains why they aren’t necessarily the next best group of
referees, but instead are the next best of available referees.
In my job, I’ve never gone for any form of promotion as I’m
happy as I am, especially as it leaves me with more free time
for outside interests than I would have otherwise. Should I have
been moved aside by now, at age 51?
Must admit I’ve seen only a few lower league officials who have
spoiled my afternoon, particularly when they failed to clamp
down on the spoiling tactics used by the likes of Darren
Ferguson and Steve Evans. Otherwise it has mainly been players
who have spoiled my afternoon!
[/quote]
Two points really- on SG2 I wouldn't have proceeded as the PGMOL
chose to do. SG2 should be composed of referees who have a
decent chance of being promoted to SG1 within five years. Making
them full-time was a huge error because you ended up with
referees who were willing to leave full-time jobs outside the
game rather than the best referees outside SG1. Of those on SG2
now the vast majority are unlikely to ever reach SG1. Those who
are tend to be like Jones, England and Brooks who have only
joined the NL within the last five years or so.
Secondly, shouldn't the majority of referees who join the NL
aspire to being SG1 and even FIFA officials? I'd guess if they
did then we wouldn't have so few referees of genuine
international calibre. You will always get some referees who
reach the NL comparatively late in their career. For them, a
maximum of 10 years on the list should be adequate (and a lot
more then they would have got in the time of a mandatory
retirement age). I realise my focus was on the NL, but really
the problem is the lack of churn from top down.
[/quote]
Yes, you have made some very good points there, although some of
them contradict what you said initially.
Like I said, it's an oft-missed point that some of those on SG2
are there because they were 'available', for want of a better
word, and not because they were 'select'.
#Post#: 19426--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: DBLTFC
Date: July 24, 2020, 8:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'd argue if you were only on SG2 because you were "available",
those who weren't shouldn't be on the NL either.
Clearly this is an extremely professional sport and it requires
commitment. Why should PGMOL / EFL put up with officials who
aren't that when clearly there are those waiting in the wings
who would love the job.
How much do officials get paid at each level? If you had the
following structure, I'd argue you'd have many giving up the day
job tomorrow...
SG1 Ref: £200,000 x 20; £75,000 x 40 assistants
VAR only: £75,000 x 4 for recently retired, VAR only specialists
SG2 Ref: £120,000 x 18; £45,000 x 36 assistants
NL List: £75,000 x 35; £25,000 x 70 assistants
Panel 2A: £35,000 x 20; part time assistants
=243 professional officials, costing around £17m a season.
Costing less than £1m per PL club.
93 referees to cover 58 games + 10 VAR referees each matchday.
Officials should be more fluid through the divisions; if they
are good enough accelerate them up. If not drop them down
#Post#: 19427--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: TVOS
Date: July 24, 2020, 10:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DBLTFC link ---
>
> I'd argue if you were only on SG2 because you were
"available", those who weren't shouldn't be on the NL either.
>
> Clearly this is an extremely professional sport and it
requires commitment. Why should PGMOL / EFL put up with
officials who aren't that when clearly there are those waiting
in the wings who would love the job.
>
> How much do officials get paid at each level? If you had the
following structure, I'd argue you'd have many giving up the day
job tomorrow...
>
> SG1 Ref: £200,000 x 20; £75,000 x 40 assistants
> VAR only: £75,000 x 4 for recently retired, VAR only
specialists
> SG2 Ref: £120,000 x 18; £45,000 x 36 assistants
> NL List: £75,000 x 35; £25,000 x 70 assistants
> Panel 2A: £35,000 x 20; part time assistants
> =243 professional officials, costing around £17m a season.
Costing less than £1m per PL club.
> 93 referees to cover 58 games + 10 VAR referees each matchday.
Officials should be more fluid through the divisions; if they
are good enough accelerate them up. If not drop them down
>
--- End Quote ---
Without knowing each official's individual circumstances, it's a
bit disingenuous to question the commitment of, say, Trevor
Kettle over that of Gavin Ward.
Alternatively, let's take Andy Madley. In his 30s and was a
teacher for a number of years, during which time he will have
built up a certain level of professional and personal pension
contributions.
It would have been a massive decision for him to take the risk
of changing all that (in what is a pretty secure position) for a
SG2 contract (and later SG1).
That's what I meant by "available", especially as injury or
fitness could curtail his refereeing career at any time.
#Post#: 19592--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: DBLTFC
Date: July 30, 2020, 2:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TVOS link ---
>
> [quote author=DBLTFC link=topic=1641.msg19426#msg19426
date=1595599142]
> I'd argue if you were only on SG2 because you were
"available", those who weren't shouldn't be on the NL either.
>
> Clearly this is an extremely professional sport and it
requires commitment. Why should PGMOL / EFL put up with
officials who aren't that when clearly there are those waiting
in the wings who would love the job.
>
> How much do officials get paid at each level? If you had the
following structure, I'd argue you'd have many giving up the day
job tomorrow...
>
> SG1 Ref: £200,000 x 20; £75,000 x 40 assistants
> VAR only: £75,000 x 4 for recently retired, VAR only
specialists
> SG2 Ref: £120,000 x 18; £45,000 x 36 assistants
> NL List: £75,000 x 35; £25,000 x 70 assistants
> Panel 2A: £35,000 x 20; part time assistants
> =243 professional officials, costing around £17m a season.
Costing less than £1m per PL club.
> 93 referees to cover 58 games + 10 VAR referees each matchday.
Officials should be more fluid through the divisions; if they
are good enough accelerate them up. If not drop them down
>
--- End Quote ---
Without knowing each official's individual circumstances, it's a
bit disingenuous to question the commitment of, say, Trevor
Kettle over that of Gavin Ward.
Alternatively, let's take Andy Madley. In his 30s and was a
teacher for a number of years, during which time he will have
built up a certain level of professional and personal pension
contributions.
It would have been a massive decision for him to take the risk
of changing all that (in what is a pretty secure position) for a
SG2 contract (and later SG1).
That's what I meant by "available", especially as injury or
fitness could curtail his refereeing career at any time.
[/quote]
I didn't mean it that explicitly. I wouldn't question a full
time refs commitment v a part timer, but if you're working 4-5
days preceding a match and had a sh!t week with a bad employer,
it's going to affect your judgement, no?
I'd argue the benefits certainly outweigh the negatives:
-Better CPD
-More emphasis on fitness and physical / mental wellbeing.
-More contact / training time leading to better decision making.
-Younger officials coming through seeing it as a real career
opportunity.
In regards to short termism, the average job in the UK lasts
just 4 years these days!
#Post#: 19595--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: rustyref
Date: July 30, 2020, 2:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There won't be an expansion of professional referees at the
current time for two reasons. Firstly, there is not going to be
any funding as Covid-19 has left a massive hole in funding even
for Premier League clubs, less so than at lower levels because
of the TV money, but it is still massive. Secondly, for those
that are lucky to still have jobs after what has happened, are
they likely to give that security up for a one year contract as
a professional referee? Some would of course, but I suspect
less than usually would as the job market is going to be a mess
for a review years.
#Post#: 19598--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: TVOS
Date: July 30, 2020, 4:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DBLTFC link ---
>
> [quote author=TVOS link=topic=1641.msg19427#msg19427
date=1595605243]
> [quote author=DBLTFC link=topic=1641.msg19426#msg19426
date=1595599142]
> I'd argue if you were only on SG2 because you were
"available", those who weren't shouldn't be on the NL either.
>
> Clearly this is an extremely professional sport and it
requires commitment. Why should PGMOL / EFL put up with
officials who aren't that when clearly there are those waiting
in the wings who would love the job.
>
> How much do officials get paid at each level? If you had the
following structure, I'd argue you'd have many giving up the day
job tomorrow...
>
> SG1 Ref: £200,000 x 20; £75,000 x 40 assistants
> VAR only: £75,000 x 4 for recently retired, VAR only
specialists
> SG2 Ref: £120,000 x 18; £45,000 x 36 assistants
> NL List: £75,000 x 35; £25,000 x 70 assistants
> Panel 2A: £35,000 x 20; part time assistants
> =243 professional officials, costing around £17m a season.
Costing less than £1m per PL club.
> 93 referees to cover 58 games + 10 VAR referees each matchday.
Officials should be more fluid through the divisions; if they
are good enough accelerate them up. If not drop them down
>
--- End Quote ---
Without knowing each official's individual circumstances, it's a
bit disingenuous to question the commitment of, say, Trevor
Kettle over that of Gavin Ward.
Alternatively, let's take Andy Madley. In his 30s and was a
teacher for a number of years, during which time he will have
built up a certain level of professional and personal pension
contributions.
It would have been a massive decision for him to take the risk
of changing all that (in what is a pretty secure position) for a
SG2 contract (and later SG1).
That's what I meant by "available", especially as injury or
fitness could curtail his refereeing career at any time.
[/quote]
I didn't mean it that explicitly. I wouldn't question a full
time refs commitment v a part timer, but if you're working 4-5
days preceding a match and had a sh!t week with a bad employer,
it's going to affect your judgement, no?
I'd argue the benefits certainly outweigh the negatives:
-Better CPD
-More emphasis on fitness and physical / mental wellbeing.
-More contact / training time leading to better decision making.
-Younger officials coming through seeing it as a real career
opportunity.
In regards to short termism, the average job in the UK lasts
just 4 years these days!
[/quote]
That's nothing like what your original post implied.
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