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#Post#: 19285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: JohnCoyle
Date: July 20, 2020, 3:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> Welcome DBLTFC, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your first
post.
>
> In particular when you say a "job for life" I think this is a
real issue, of course we need the steady eddies but for me there
is simply nowhere near enough churn at the national level. I
know in some countries they operate an automatic
promotion/demotion system based on the merit table for that
year, is such a system used at any level in the English game?
>
--- End Quote ---
As someone who watches most of my live football at League One
and (occasionally) League Two levels, it's one of my biggest
bugbears. There are a number of NL referees whom you know are
going to produce, at best, an adequate performance and at worst
are likely to ruin your afternoon. (Anyone who watches football
at my level will know who I am talking about).
The age-limit used to deal with a lot of this, especially when
it became more flexible so that very good referees could have an
extra season or two. Personally, I think if a NL referee hasn't
managed to reach SG2 after a certain number of years they should
stand down from the NL, although for that to work properly you
would need a greater degree of churn at SG2 and above than
exists now.
#Post#: 19288--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: TVOS
Date: July 20, 2020, 3:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JohnCoyle link ---
>
> [quote author=DublinRef link=topic=1641.msg19246#msg19246
date=1595162395]
> Welcome DBLTFC, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your first
post.
>
> In particular when you say a "job for life" I think this is a
real issue, of course we need the steady eddies but for me there
is simply nowhere near enough churn at the national level. I
know in some countries they operate an automatic
promotion/demotion system based on the merit table for that
year, is such a system used at any level in the English game?
>
--- End Quote ---
As someone who watches most of my live football at League One
and (occasionally) League Two levels, it's one of my biggest
bugbears. There are a number of NL referees whom you know are
going to produce, at best, an adequate performance and at worst
are likely to ruin your afternoon. (Anyone who watches football
at my level will know who I am talking about).
The age-limit used to deal with a lot of this, especially when
it became more flexible so that very good referees could have an
extra season or two. Personally, I think if a NL referee hasn't
managed to reach SG2 after a certain number of years they should
stand down from the NL, although for that to work properly you
would need a greater degree of churn at SG2 and above than
exists now.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I can’t agree with your last point at all.
There will be a number of NL referees who are in good jobs away
from refereeing and couldn’t afford to take the risk of losing
all that for a SG2 contract. Are you saying they should be
penalised for that?
It’s an often missed point that those on SG2 had to be available
and prepared to forego their other careers in order to join this
list.
It explains why they aren’t necessarily the next best group of
referees, but instead are the next best of available referees.
In my job, I’ve never gone for any form of promotion as I’m
happy as I am, especially as it leaves me with more free time
for outside interests than I would have otherwise. Should I have
been moved aside by now, at age 51?
Must admit I’ve seen only a few lower league officials who have
spoiled my afternoon, particularly when they failed to clamp
down on the spoiling tactics used by the likes of Darren
Ferguson and Steve Evans. Otherwise it has mainly been players
who have spoiled my afternoon!
#Post#: 19300--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: July 20, 2020, 9:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have agreed with both JohnCoyle and TVOS as both cases clearly
have merit. The solution is probably somewhere in the middle.
I agree that consistently decent performers on the NL group are
needed, and sometimes there is a lack of quality at that level.
However, there are also some plodders and time-servers just
treading water and consequently blocking opportunity for good
young officials.
Certainly in my refereeing days it was a case of 'who you knew'
and I can recall a lot of excellent referees who got nowhere
because their faces didn't fit with the local 'blazers' or
didn't have the time to pay deference to the local RA. Some
promising people just called it a day through frustration.
Likewise some quite mediocre referees went much further than
their ability merited. Whether this is still the case I can
only really guess.
I believe there does need to be a better way of getting rid of
referees who are clearly making no progress as it is true to say
the standard in Leagues 1 & 2 leaves much to be desired. I
trust I shall see an improvement with my team's officials next
season as they will be mostly SG2.
#Post#: 19376--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: Maltese Falcon
Date: July 23, 2020, 2:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether there
is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National List
Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically, from
personal experience, at Level 3.
At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
It's harsh, but IMO fair
#Post#: 19384--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: ajb95
Date: July 23, 2020, 5:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Maltese Falcon link ---
>
> Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether
there is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National
List Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically,
from personal experience, at Level 3.
>
> At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
>
> It's harsh, but IMO fair
>
--- End Quote ---
Whilst I agree how would you factor in the contracts and
professionalisation??
#Post#: 19391--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: QuoCob
Date: July 23, 2020, 7:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> [quote author=Maltese Falcon link=topic=1641.msg19376#msg19376
date=1595490632]
> Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether
there is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National
List Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically,
from personal experience, at Level 3.
>
> At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
>
> It's harsh, but IMO fair
>
--- End Quote ---
Whilst I agree how would you factor in the contracts and
professionalisation??
[/quote]
Especially if there is only a fag paper between the top 40% and
the bottom 60% in the subjective marking system?
Can see the Employment Tribunals organisation taking on extra
staff...
#Post#: 19395--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: nemesis
Date: July 23, 2020, 8:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Maltese Falcon link ---
>
> Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether
there is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National
List Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically,
from personal experience, at Level 3.
>
> At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
>
> It's harsh, but IMO fair
>
--- End Quote ---
It's far from fair.
If a referee is the 41st best out of 100 at a particular level,
that is something he/she can be reasonably pleased with and
he/she deserves to continue at that level. Those referees who
are not thrusting for promotion can often be relied on to
provide a good solid, empathetic performance to the benefit of
the game. Plenty of aspiring referees have been so keen to
showcase their "talents" to the detriment of the game.
Football does not exist simply to provide a pathway for
ambitious referees.
#Post#: 19398--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: July 23, 2020, 9:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If any club in the Premier League that hadn't finished in the
top 40% in the last three seasons was to be relegated the
majority in the bottom half of the table would be off to the
Championship next season. "Fair enough," you might say, "get
rid of the dead wood." But would their replacements from the
top of the next level really be any better or would it just
further entrench the positions of those at the top?
#Post#: 19399--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: Leggy
Date: July 23, 2020, 10:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=Maltese Falcon link=topic=1641.msg19376#msg19376
date=1595490632]
> Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether
there is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National
List Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically,
from personal experience, at Level 3.
>
> At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
>
> It's harsh, but IMO fair
>
--- End Quote ---
It's far from fair.
If a referee is the 41st best out of 100 at a particular level,
that is something he/she can be reasonably pleased with and
he/she deserves to continue at that level. Those referees who
are not thrusting for promotion can often be relied on to
provide a good solid, empathic performance to the benefit of the
game. Plenty of aspiring referees have been so keen to showcase
their "talents" to the detriment of the game.
Football does not exist simply to provide a pathway for
ambitious referees.
[/quote]
Agree. And football needs the "foot soldier" referees to keep
the show on the road while the superstars briefly show us their
stardust before moving on to higher and better(?) things.
#Post#: 19409--------------------------------------------------
Re: Refeering standards in England
DIR By: Hendo
Date: July 23, 2020, 1:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=1641.msg19395#msg19395
date=1595512528]
> [quote author=Maltese Falcon link=topic=1641.msg19376#msg19376
date=1595490632]
> Reading the above discussion has got me wondering whether
there is (or should be) a similar structure in place at National
List Level, to that lower down the pyramid ... specifically,
from personal experience, at Level 3.
>
> At this Level, if any official has not featured in the Top 40%
of the bandings for three consecutive seasons, then they are in
the frame for demotion. This ensures that that those 'scraping
by' each year, without showing any indication of the talent to
progress upwards, will not be allowed to 'clog up' the system.
>
> It's harsh, but IMO fair
>
--- End Quote ---
It's far from fair.
If a referee is the 41st best out of 100 at a particular level,
that is something he/she can be reasonably pleased with and
he/she deserves to continue at that level. Those referees who
are not thrusting for promotion can often be relied on to
provide a good solid, empathic performance to the benefit of the
game. Plenty of aspiring referees have been so keen to showcase
their "talents" to the detriment of the game.
Football does not exist simply to provide a pathway for
ambitious referees.
[/quote]
Agree. And football needs the "foot soldier" referees to keep
the show on the road while the superstars briefly show us their
stardust before moving on to higher and better(?) things.
[/quote]
Such as defecting to head up referees in Saudi Arabia for 2
years..........then Chian for a year.........and now Greece for
who knows how long. 🤪. Or something like that
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