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#Post#: 18861--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: July 10, 2020, 8:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=Ref Fan link=topic=1604.msg18843#msg18843
date=1594371616]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1604.msg18825#msg18825
date=1594322670]
> Guttingly the 2 ruled out goals for AFCB were both correct
calls!
>
> The current handball law is [emoji35]
>
> Hope Smudger is ok - not nice to see him being stretchered off
[emoji17]
>
--- End Quote ---
Out of interest bmb, (having seen little of the game), was it
VAR who ruled out the Bournemouth goals or did he simply confirm
the referee's decision?
Mourinho ought to be grateful for something but I doubt he will
be ecstatic to see Oliver in the middle on Sunday.
Those reports which say PGMOL have agreed there were 3 wrong
penalty decisions by VAR - I'm still not clear as to whether
they are saying VAR should have told the referee to change his
decision, or whether the 'decision' should now have been to
advise the referee to look at the monitor. And without knowing
what conversations take place between referee and VAR, can the
referee (who many want to see make the final decision) dig his
heels in and tell VAR 'I had a perfectly good view, it's a
subjective decision, and I'm happy with my decision'?
If a referee has a partially obstructed view or poor angle, I
accept that VAR has a responsibility to intervene to correct a
clear and obvious error. Where the referee has no such excuse,
it seems to me a little unfair if all the flack is aimed at VAR
rather than the referee. Halsey is claiming Tierney had a clear
view of the Kane incident and referees at that level shouldn't
be getting it wrong.
[/quote]
The monitor hasn't been used for any penalty decisions in
English football this season. The directive currently is to only
use it for red cards but seems that will change next season.
It's an interesting point you make about referees not getting
the blame and Andre Marriner said something similar on the Peter
Crouch podcast. But I guess the overall point is that referees
have always made mistakes and that's why VAR was introduced.
I wonder if our expectations are just too great? Are we putting
too much emphasis on there always being a 'correct' decision or
a 'wrong' decision and expecting the officials to fall in line
with whatever way the majority verdict swings afterwards?
[/quote]
Thanks for reminding me Readingfan about the current protocol in
England for the monitor only to be used for red cards. I get
confused easily these days. ???
So, when it comes to penalties, is there allowance for any
conversation / discussion between Referee and VAR or is the
Referee solely in the hands of VAR for the final decision
without giving any input? I seem to recall Atkinson looking
decidedly unhappy when a couple of his on field decisions were
overturned last season.
Your comment about 'correct' and 'wrong' decisions also strikes
a chord. Not having seen the Kane incident live, I must confess
when I saw it first time at full speed later, I wasn't totally
convinced - a coming together of players going for the ball, a
bit of a melee you sometimes see from corner kicks with players
bumping into each other. That probably says more about my
eyesight and brain however! Watching it in slo-mo and then again
at full speed, yes, it clearly should have been a penalty for a
definite push in the back.
As has been said before frequently, how do you define 'clear and
obvious'. How much leeway do you allow for a referee's
interpretation of what he saw or didn't see? Even allowing for
the extra camera angles and several reviews, is a VAR's opinion
on some subjective decisions going to be 'more correct' than the
referee's?
#Post#: 18863--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: bmb
Date: July 10, 2020, 8:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1604.msg18825#msg18825
date=1594322670]
> Guttingly the 2 ruled out goals for AFCB were both correct
calls!
>
> The current handball law is [emoji35]
>
> Hope Smudger is ok - not nice to see him being stretchered off
[emoji17]
>
--- End Quote ---
Out of interest bmb, (having seen little of the game), was it
VAR who ruled out the Bournemouth goals or did he simply confirm
the referee's decision?
[/quote]
They were both reviewed by VAR as is standard these days but as
to whether they were confirmed decisions or made by the VAR -
who knows!
#Post#: 18864--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=1604.msg18857#msg18857
date=1594385885]
> Tossing a coin might be better?
>
--- End Quote ---
Double headed?
[/quote]
Depends who is playing?
#Post#: 18865--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=1604.msg18859#msg18859
date=1594386437]
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=1604.msg18857#msg18857
date=1594385885]
> Tossing a coin might be better?
>
--- End Quote ---
Double headed?
[/quote]
Depends who is playing?
[/quote]
Probably a lot of truth in that too!
#Post#: 18867--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: dave26
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Has David Coote done any VAR duties since the restart ? He
seemed to cause a stir when on VAR duty before lockdown
#Post#: 18868--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Ref Fan link=topic=1604.msg18843#msg18843
date=1594371616]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1604.msg18825#msg18825
date=1594322670]
> Guttingly the 2 ruled out goals for AFCB were both correct
calls!
>
> The current handball law is [emoji35]
>
> Hope Smudger is ok - not nice to see him being stretchered off
[emoji17]
>
--- End Quote ---
Out of interest bmb, (having seen little of the game), was it
VAR who ruled out the Bournemouth goals or did he simply confirm
the referee's decision?
[/quote]
They were both reviewed by VAR as is standard these days but as
to whether they were confirmed decisions or made by the VAR -
who knows!
[/quote]
The second was a VAR decision - Tierney made the signal.
The first was an on-field decision - in fact, I'm pretty sure
the whistle blew before the goal was scored.
#Post#: 18869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: bmb
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> I too hope Smudger is OK. VAR is clearly the problem. All
referees make mistakes on the field but VAR is intended to
correct them. VAR is too obsessed with mm regarding offsides and
has lost the broader picture.
> Cameras clearly showed what happened and the decision by the
on field referee corrected. So protocol or instructions are
wrong or there is to much empathy with the on field referee not
wishing to undermine perhaps a relationship or friendship. After
this length of time using VAR there can be little excuse.
Someone failed to do their job and consequences must follow.
Suspension of VAR officials must be considered if they cannot
get it right after proper training.
> Perhaps VAR officials ought to be independent, from another
country maybe or enlist the services of Roy Keane. At least he
would not be afraid of upsetting onfield officials!
>
--- End Quote ---
He was sitting up in the dressing room and talking after being
stretchered off, which bodes well.
VAR works well on the mm offside purely because it is so black
and white, it either is offside or it isn't. I don't like it
because I think the margins are too fine and am of the opinion
that unless it is obvious to the naked eye then the AR's
original decision should stand. For me it undermines AR's, these
are guys that had 96/97/98% accuracy in relation to offsides
without VAR and it is impossible for them to see with the naked
eye if someone's toenail is 1mm offside. If they have missed
someone being well offside maybe because of obscured vision then
ok fair enough because that is a clear and obvious error. *Yes I
know clear and obvious does not apply to offsides because they
are black & white decisions* Like them or not though (and it is
my personal preference in that regard) they are corrects calls.
The problems seem to stem more from the subjective decisions.
Just taking my own experience as a supporter, what I would
expect to be given as a foul in the NBI is not necessarily the
same as what I would expect to see given as a foul in the PL.
The NBI has a very strict application of the LOTG, the PL has a
more lenient application within the spirit of the LOTG so when
watching games in the different leagues my expectations are
different. Some more minor fouls I would expect to see no action
in the PL but a free kick in the NBI and both of those decisions
would be right in their respective leagues. That straight away
highlights a problem with subjectivity - if an identical
incident is widely accepted as a foul in 1 league but would be
seen harsh in another league if given as a foul, yet neither
decision is wrong within the LOTG then which version of correct
is actually correct? Throw into the mix referees own individual
tolerance levels - they range from your referee who will apply a
100% strict application of the LOTG to those who are very
lenient and rely more on the spirit of the Law. Neither is wrong
as long as their decision is justified within the spirit or
strict application of the LOTG. How can someone else then say it
is wrong? VAR in general goes against those words that appear
many times in the LOTG "In the opinion of the referee".
When it was introduced it was meant to catch those incidents
missed by a referee or a clearly wrong offside call but then it
isn't designed to work that way. There are only set
circumstances it can be used and with very strict criteria. It
is only the PL that doesn't use the monitor, everywhere else
manages to without too much fuss. Personally I think FIFA should
come out & say the monitor has to be used in every penalty/red
card decision regardless. The decision must be made by the
referee and the referee only. If they have missed an
infringement then let them put it right, the game is very fast
these days, it's not that difficult to miss something in that
split second it occurs because the human eye can only see so
much and the human brain can only process so much in any given
split second.
#Post#: 18870--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: bmb
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> It used to take 3 officials to take charge of a game when we
had really good players participating and it used to work quite
well, in spite of a few matches causing the odd problem. We now
have 6 officials involved and it has doubled the arguments!
>
--- End Quote ---
Too many cooks spoil the broth!
#Post#: 18871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: bmb
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1604.msg18863#msg18863
date=1594389081]
> [quote author=Ref Fan link=topic=1604.msg18843#msg18843
date=1594371616]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1604.msg18825#msg18825
date=1594322670]
> Guttingly the 2 ruled out goals for AFCB were both correct
calls!
>
> The current handball law is [emoji35]
>
> Hope Smudger is ok - not nice to see him being stretchered off
[emoji17]
>
--- End Quote ---
Out of interest bmb, (having seen little of the game), was it
VAR who ruled out the Bournemouth goals or did he simply confirm
the referee's decision?
[/quote]
They were both reviewed by VAR as is standard these days but as
to whether they were confirmed decisions or made by the VAR -
who knows!
[/quote]
The second was a VAR decision - Tierney made the signal.
The first was an on-field decision - in fact, I'm pretty sure
the whistle blew before the goal was scored.
[/quote]
Thanks I knew the 2nd one was definitely a VAR call but couldn't
remember on the first.
#Post#: 18872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul Tierney - Bournemouth vs. Tottenham
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: July 10, 2020, 9:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think this tweet from ESPN journalist Dale Johnson neatly sums
up many of the problems the Premier League have had this season:
'It's the perfect storm of the VAR not being sure if he should
overrule the referee, but not having the safety net of asking
the referee to take a look himself.'
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