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#Post#: 18438--------------------------------------------------
The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: RCG
Date: June 27, 2020, 2:03 am
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What crime is more heinous? Making a positive decision based on
well coached positioning, thought processes, experience and
being proved wrong? Or ignoring offences and waiting for your 2
mates with a zapper to make the call?
Are we scaring our top officials away from making on field
decisions?
Case for the prosecution: Thurs night, important game, late on.
Quick break with an advanrage (did De Bruyne get cautioned?),
ping pong in the box, referee 16 yards from goal line, player
clearly uses his hand to prevent a player getting the scoring
touch. Penalty the whole non crowd scream (would it have been
given quicker had the fans been behind the goal?). Referee
continues the game whilst conversing with pizza delivery
company.
I would like to know if Attwell said "almost certain he handled
that, please check" or whether it was initiated by VAR.
If that incident had happened at any level below Premier League
the referee and probably the assistant would have been lynched
if a penalty had not been given.
These guys are amongst the best but will be losing their
instincts/feel for the game if we are not careful
#Post#: 18439--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: June 27, 2020, 4:43 am
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I do not know whether or not VAR is affecting the ability or
willingness for onfield officials to make decisions, only they
could tell you that, however, their answer should be that it
makes no difference.
I can tell you that De Bruyne was cautioned for the offence
leading up to the penalty, although that took some time if
memory serves me correctly, possibly because of it showing the
VAR reviews.
#Post#: 18440--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: carrowman
Date: June 27, 2020, 5:03 am
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--- Quote from: RCG link ---
>
> What crime is more heinous? Making a positive decision based
on well coached positioning, thought processes, experience and
being proved wrong? Or ignoring offences and waiting for your 2
mates with a zapper to make the call?
> Are we scaring our top officials away from making on field
decisions?
>
> Case for the prosecution: Thurs night, important game, late
on. Quick break with an advanrage (did De Bruyne get
cautioned?), ping pong in the box, referee 16 yards from goal
line, player clearly uses his hand to prevent a player getting
the scoring touch. Penalty the whole non crowd scream (would it
have been given quicker had the fans been behind the goal?).
Referee continues the game whilst conversing with pizza delivery
company.
>
> I would like to know if Attwell said "almost certain he
handled that, please check" or whether it was initiated by VAR.
>
> If that incident had happened at any level below Premier
League the referee and probably the assistant would have been
lynched if a penalty had not been given.
>
> These guys are amongst the best but will be losing their
instincts/feel for the game if we are not careful
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree, I did make a comment yesterday on the earlier S Attwell
post
#Post#: 18445--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: Hendo
Date: June 27, 2020, 7:55 am
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Since cricket introduced tv replays it has been noticeable that
so much is referred to the 3rd umpire which wasn’t before and
which really should be now. Am thinking especially of run outs
and the number of times these are referred when the player is a
good yard or more out. Your top umpires of yesteryear such as
David Shepherd, Dickie Bird, Barrie Meyer etc used to make such
split decisions without tv help and in the majority of cases
were spot on.
I think it was Peter Wiley who said it was better to refer to
Technology available than risk being made to look a fool, even
when you were 99% sure of your own decision and the outcome was
pretty obvious to the naked eye.
That said I recall the 2017 RL Cup Final at Wembley where a last
minute attack ended up with a player held on the line. It would
have been easy to have referred the decision to the tv official
but the referee made an instant on field call of no try,
confident in his own judgement to do so. A brilliant decision as
it proved, from a part time ref too, Gareth Hewer. In my humble
opinion, and not simply due to that decision, one of the most
accomplished Wembley Final performances I have ever seen from a
referee.
#Post#: 18490--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: Scally Bob
Date: June 28, 2020, 11:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> I do not know whether or not VAR is affecting the ability or
willingness for onfield officials to make decisions, only they
could tell you that, however, their answer should be that it
makes no difference.
> I can tell you that De Bruyne was cautioned for the offence
leading up to the penalty, although that took some time if
memory serves me correctly, possibly because of it showing the
VAR reviews.
>
--- End Quote ---
Next season De Bruyne would escape the YC (assuming it was for
preventing a promising attack) because advantage was played.
As for the original question: I don’t watch a lot of rugby
league but I said when VAR was coming in that in many rugby
league games what look like very simple decisions that I’d
expect a referee to see are referred to the video referee. Even
my untrained eye could see what the decision should be and rugby
league referees because of the nature of the game are rarely
poorly positioned. I predicted football referees would be the
same especially as I suspect the head of PGMOL might not be
supportive of an official who makes an error.
#Post#: 18496--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: ajb95
Date: June 28, 2020, 3:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Scally Bob link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=1574.msg18439#msg18439
date=1593251016]
> I do not know whether or not VAR is affecting the ability or
willingness for onfield officials to make decisions, only they
could tell you that, however, their answer should be that it
makes no difference.
> I can tell you that De Bruyne was cautioned for the offence
leading up to the penalty, although that took some time if
memory serves me correctly, possibly because of it showing the
VAR reviews.
>
--- End Quote ---
Next season De Bruyne would escape the YC (assuming it was for
preventing a promising attack) because advantage was played.
[/quote]
Another rule that doesn’t need tampering with!
The VAR should be used for a clear mistake. Everyone can make
them, have a bad position etc.
A good example is the Man City v Man United. Rashford clearly
fouled in the box Taylor unsighted and VAR intervenes to give
the correct decision.
I haven’t seen much evidence of this so far!
#Post#: 18522--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: June 29, 2020, 12:35 pm
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The way football's use of VAR seems to me (at least in theory)
to be a bit different to most other sports. In rugby, it seems
the referee can opt out of making a decision initially and just
ask the TMO to check, whereas in football the procedure is they
should actively make a decision first (either way) and then VAR
checks everything and overrules if wrong.
I'm sure some of the poorer/weaker officials do make
non-decisions in the belief VAR can bail them out if wrong but
let's remember plenty of mistakes were made before VAR so I
doubt this is the case every time. Some referees just miss quite
a lot!
It would be interesting I suppose to hear what the error rate
for KMI decisions was this season before VAR intervention and
how it compared to the KMI errors last year without VAR (I think
it was around 82% accuracy in the PL last year?)
#Post#: 18525--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: June 29, 2020, 1:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> The way football's use of VAR seems to me (at least in theory)
to be a bit different to most other sports. In rugby, it seems
the referee can opt out of making a decision initially and just
ask the TMO to check, whereas in football the procedure is they
should actively make a decision first (either way) and then VAR
checks everything and overrules if wrong.
>
> I'm sure some of the poorer/weaker officials do make
non-decisions in the belief VAR can bail them out if wrong but
let's remember plenty of mistakes were made before VAR so I
doubt this is the case every time. Some referees just miss quite
a lot!
>
> It would be interesting I suppose to hear what the error rate
for KMI decisions was this season before VAR intervention and
how it compared to the KMI errors last year without VAR (I think
it was around 82% accuracy in the PL last year?)
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't know what the procedure is in Rugby Union because I have
no interest in that aspect of rugby, however, In Rugby League
the referee makes his decision and indicates on the field
whether he thinks it is a try or not an asks the TMO to check
various aspects. It is then dependent on whether or not the TMO
can see anything concrete to overrule the original decision. In
the NRL in Australia they have also introduced a Captain's
Challenge where the skipper of each side can challenge ONE
onfield decision per match, if he wins the challenge it retains
the opportunity to challenge again, however, if he loses the
challenge then that is the end of it. Certainly seems to work
very well and is amusing to hear the ref getting a bit of grief,
smiling at the player and asking if he wishes to challenge and
grinning broadly when the player shakes his head.
#Post#: 18537--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: RCG
Date: June 29, 2020, 6:28 pm
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Rugby union is similar on tries. Onfield decision is
communicated, TMO must then have clear evidence to change/over
rule
I am still a big fan of the "moving check" where referees ask
TMO to check something whilst game is in motion. If there is,
this is reviewed at next stoppage. If not, game goes on with ref
saying "we have checked it, get on with it"
Not 100% but in the main decisions are made correctly. Much more
of an emphasis on the on field officials to make a decision.
95+/100 as you listen to the ref explain it, they have got it
right first viewing.
#Post#: 18538--------------------------------------------------
Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
DIR By: flipmode
Date: June 29, 2020, 8:19 pm
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You could also argue the other way too, that VAR's are too
scared to overrule/advise their on field counterparts.
Case for the prosecution being Jordan Ayew v Brownhill in the
Palace v Burnley match. Incident reviewed by VAR and no RC for
VC given. I feel strongly that if the on-field referee had
consulted the pitch-side monitor that it would have been deemed
VC and a RC given.
I'm amazed that the VAR looked at that and decided no clear and
obvious error had been made.
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