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#Post#: 15990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: ajb95
Date: February 21, 2020, 3:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again at Maguire's assault
on the opponent he may well have issued the red card, but it
should be down to him, not someone miles away.
[/quote]
It was hardly an assault - yes it was a red card but to say
assault suggests something so terribly violent. Clearly it
wasn’t
#Post#: 15993--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: February 21, 2020, 5:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=1382.msg15983#msg15983
date=1582244960]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again at Maguire's assault
on the opponent he may well have issued the red card, but it
should be down to him, not someone miles away.
[/quote]
It was hardly an assault - yes it was a red card but to say
assault suggests something so terribly violent. Clearly it
wasn’t
[/quote]
If he had done it at a bus stop I think the word 'assault' would
have been used by the police.
#Post#: 16000--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 21, 2020, 10:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have a simple enough solution to which some of my previous
posts have alluded. The sensible answer is indeed simple; the
match referee should decide where it is a matter of opinion
rather than fact.
Offsides, ball over the line etc are factual decisions, although
the way offside has been messed about with you would hardly know
it. Fouls, penalties etc are always matters of opinion at the
end of the day, so the man who is the actual referee has to make
the decision as he is ultimately responsible. VAR may well wish
to alert him to something he may have missed, but that should
result in consulting the replays on the monitor and making the
decision himself. If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again
at Maguire's assault on the opponent he may well have issued the
red card, but it should be down to him, not someone miles away.
There is some logic here. VAR is very different from DRS in
cricket. Most things in cricket are fact, not opinion, even lbw
these days with ball tracking, albeit with a margin of error
factored in with 'Umpire's Call'. So the 3rd umpire can say
with certainty that a ball had been nicked or a player run out.
Football relies more on judgement, which is after all what
distinguishes good and bad referees. I would be very
uncomfortable for someone else making my subjective decisions
without me having another look.
[/quote]
I think there is much merit in what you say, although of course
in this instance it was more a case of Taylor making the
decision and Kavanagh not changing it than Kavanagh making the
decision. I suppose this is the difficult balance to find. VAR
is only meant to alert a referee to a potential clear and
obvious error but the VAR generally has to decide when that line
is crossed - do we want the referee taking a second look at
every possible penalty/red card/disallowed goal even if their
iniitla decision seems fine?
#Post#: 16002--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 21, 2020, 10:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=1382.msg15983#msg15983
date=1582244960]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have a simple enough solution to which some of my previous
posts have alluded. The sensible answer is indeed simple; the
match referee should decide where it is a matter of opinion
rather than fact.
Offsides, ball over the line etc are factual decisions, although
the way offside has been messed about with you would hardly know
it. Fouls, penalties etc are always matters of opinion at the
end of the day, so the man who is the actual referee has to make
the decision as he is ultimately responsible. VAR may well wish
to alert him to something he may have missed, but that should
result in consulting the replays on the monitor and making the
decision himself. If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again
at Maguire's assault on the opponent he may well have issued the
red card, but it should be down to him, not someone miles away.
There is some logic here. VAR is very different from DRS in
cricket. Most things in cricket are fact, not opinion, even lbw
these days with ball tracking, albeit with a margin of error
factored in with 'Umpire's Call'. So the 3rd umpire can say
with certainty that a ball had been nicked or a player run out.
Football relies more on judgement, which is after all what
distinguishes good and bad referees. I would be very
uncomfortable for someone else making my subjective decisions
without me having another look.
[/quote]
I think there is much merit in what you say, although of course
in this instance it was more a case of Taylor making the
decision and Kavanagh not changing it than Kavanagh making the
decision. I suppose this is the difficult balance to find. VAR
is only meant to alert a referee to a potential clear and
obvious error but the VAR generally has to decide when that line
is crossed - do we want the referee taking a second look at
every possible penalty/red card/disallowed goal even if their
iniitla decision seems fine?
[/quote]
What I personally want is for the referee to be the one making
the decision, on any subjective call, whether that be by his
initial reaction to any incident or by having reviewed the
pitchside monitor I no longer really care but it has to be his
decision and his decision alone. Every single time a VAR makes
the call on a subjective decision & there is no pitchside review
then the referee is not making the decision, it is being made
for him and I disagree with that.
#Post#: 16003--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 21, 2020, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't necessarily disagree with teh above but I think that
still only gets us a certain amount of the way there - with the
Maguire incident on Monday Taylor didn't look at a monitor and
the VAR didn't change the decision. (Of course under the new
protocol Taylor would have looked at the monitor if Kavanagh
recommended it was a red card.)
#Post#: 16007--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: February 22, 2020, 5:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=1382.msg15983#msg15983
date=1582244960]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have a simple enough solution to which some of my previous
posts have alluded. The sensible answer is indeed simple; the
match referee should decide where it is a matter of opinion
rather than fact.
Offsides, ball over the line etc are factual decisions, although
the way offside has been messed about with you would hardly know
it. Fouls, penalties etc are always matters of opinion at the
end of the day, so the man who is the actual referee has to make
the decision as he is ultimately responsible. VAR may well wish
to alert him to something he may have missed, but that should
result in consulting the replays on the monitor and making the
decision himself. If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again
at Maguire's assault on the opponent he may well have issued the
red card, but it should be down to him, not someone miles away.
There is some logic here. VAR is very different from DRS in
cricket. Most things in cricket are fact, not opinion, even lbw
these days with ball tracking, albeit with a margin of error
factored in with 'Umpire's Call'. So the 3rd umpire can say
with certainty that a ball had been nicked or a player run out.
Football relies more on judgement, which is after all what
distinguishes good and bad referees. I would be very
uncomfortable for someone else making my subjective decisions
without me having another look.
[/quote]
I think there is much merit in what you say, although of course
in this instance it was more a case of Taylor making the
decision and Kavanagh not changing it than Kavanagh making the
decision. I suppose this is the difficult balance to find. VAR
is only meant to alert a referee to a potential clear and
obvious error but the VAR generally has to decide when that line
is crossed - do we want the referee taking a second look at
every possible penalty/red card/disallowed goal even if their
iniitla decision seems fine?
[/quote]
The problem is that Taylor (OK, not Atkinson!!) made a very
poor error, although he may have been poorly positioned and not
got a great view. You would hope that, had VAR requested he
take another look, he would have gone to the monitor, seen it
from better angles and concluded that he needed to show an
obvious red card. The real issue is that Kavanagh had the
advantage of those better views and still concluded it was not
red. As I have said many times, it's not the system, it's the
lack of competence of those applying it.
The issue is still the one of who is in charge. Taylor could
never correct his decision without another look. Yet he is the
match referee and should have the final say. He ended up
relying on someone else to make a wrong decision even with the
benefit of technology. No wonder VAR gets so much stick when it
is applied so badly. Let VAR alert the referee to a possible
error, not make the final decision in a judgement call.
#Post#: 16009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 22, 2020, 7:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think the problem is the middle ground as to what constitutes
an error.
If we look at the penalty given by Cakir at Spurs on Wednesday
night then I'm sure we'd all agree that was a clear penalty and
no need for VAR to suggest Cakir goes to look at it.
I guess the issue is at what point VAR should request the
referee takes another look. At the moment, even in the CL etc,
it's for an obvious error where probably at least 90% of the
time the decision should be overturned if the referee is going
to look at the monitor.
There are some who think that the monitor should be used even if
it is a 50/50 decision as then the referee has the best chance
of making the most accurate decision and is taking control of
all decisions. But if countries which have had more
interventions people are also getting frustrated by that and
VARs are being asked to make fewer referrals.
Obviously Kavanagh should have asked Taylor to look the other
night but if in his mind it's not a red card then the initial
stage isn't going to work properly.
#Post#: 16060--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: February 22, 2020, 6:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=1382.msg16000#msg16000
date=1582301631]
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=1382.msg15983#msg15983
date=1582244960]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have a simple enough solution to which some of my previous
posts have alluded. The sensible answer is indeed simple; the
match referee should decide where it is a matter of opinion
rather than fact.
Offsides, ball over the line etc are factual decisions, although
the way offside has been messed about with you would hardly know
it. Fouls, penalties etc are always matters of opinion at the
end of the day, so the man who is the actual referee has to make
the decision as he is ultimately responsible. VAR may well wish
to alert him to something he may have missed, but that should
result in consulting the replays on the monitor and making the
decision himself. If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again
at Maguire's assault on the opponent he may well have issued the
red card, but it should be down to him, not someone miles away.
There is some logic here. VAR is very different from DRS in
cricket. Most things in cricket are fact, not opinion, even lbw
these days with ball tracking, albeit with a margin of error
factored in with 'Umpire's Call'. So the 3rd umpire can say
with certainty that a ball had been nicked or a player run out.
Football relies more on judgement, which is after all what
distinguishes good and bad referees. I would be very
uncomfortable for someone else making my subjective decisions
without me having another look.
[/quote]
I think there is much merit in what you say, although of course
in this instance it was more a case of Taylor making the
decision and Kavanagh not changing it than Kavanagh making the
decision. I suppose this is the difficult balance to find. VAR
is only meant to alert a referee to a potential clear and
obvious error but the VAR generally has to decide when that line
is crossed - do we want the referee taking a second look at
every possible penalty/red card/disallowed goal even if their
iniitla decision seems fine?
[/quote]
The problem is that Taylor (OK, not Atkinson!!) made a very
poor error, although he may have been poorly positioned and not
got a great view. You would hope that, had VAR requested he
take another look, he would have gone to the monitor, seen it
from better angles and concluded that he needed to show an
obvious red card. The real issue is that Kavanagh had the
advantage of those better views and still concluded it was not
red. As I have said many times, it's not the system, it's the
lack of competence of those applying it.
The issue is still the one of who is in charge. Taylor could
never correct his decision without another look. Yet he is the
match referee and should have the final say. He ended up
relying on someone else to make a wrong decision even with the
benefit of technology. No wonder VAR gets so much stick when it
is applied so badly. Let VAR alert the referee to a possible
error, not make the final decision in a judgement call.
[/quote]
Why would Taylor have decided it was obviously a red card if he
had another look?
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