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#Post#: 15906--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: QuoCob
Date: February 19, 2020, 12:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: They Are Getting Worse link ---
>
> So Son is sent off for flicking out at Rudiger who fell down
like he was shot warranted a red card, bizarrely. And yet
Maguire kicks and then stamps his boot into Batshuayi's
privates, blatantly an nastily, yet is given absolutely
nothing!!!
>
> A really poor night for Taylor, got so many things wrong.
Chelsea can, for once, feel rightly aggrieved by his
incompetence and the VAR's awfulness.
>
--- End Quote ---
You havn't seen the Maguire incident have you?
#Post#: 15910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: February 19, 2020, 5:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> I have only seen the very briefest of highlights on Breakfast
TV this morning. How Maguire did not receive a red card, I
really don't know. Harry has claimed that he stuck out his leg
to stop the opponent from falling on him, but that imho is a
load of tosh. The movement of the leg into the groin was
voluntary and should have been punished accordingly. A yellow
card in this instance makes a mockery of VAR at a time when it
already has problems in being accepted on the PL. There has been
talk of a wrong use of VAR provoking problems on the terraces. I
listened to the last few minutes of the game on R5L. The United
fans were chortling 'V-A-R' whilst the Chelsea fans who stayed
behind were chorusing something less complimentary about VAR. We
do not need this. The VAR in this instance did not do his job
correctly and this must not be allowed to happen again.
>
--- End Quote ---
I do agree with what you say here. But I think we need to
recognise that VAR as a system did its job perfectly well for
the Maguire incident. The referee managed to miss a very
obvious red card. However, VAR gave him the clearest possible
evidence that it was violent conduct. Yet they still managed to
get it wrong. Taylor should certainly have looked at the
monitor if he felt he might have missed something but failed to
do his job. Even worse was the fact that Kavanagh could sit in
his chair and watch the incident on several replays and manage
to convince himself it was not an issue.
It really doesn't matter how good the technology is if those
operating it are incapable of using it properly. This is my
main gripe with VAR as it stands, and something I have
highlighted before on this forum. VAR may have its faults, such
as its offside application, but this was entirely human error.
#Post#: 15916--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: nemesis
Date: February 19, 2020, 8:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=1382.msg15865#msg15865
date=1582040566]
> I have only seen the very briefest of highlights on Breakfast
TV this morning. How Maguire did not receive a red card, I
really don't know. Harry has claimed that he stuck out his leg
to stop the opponent from falling on him, but that imho is a
load of tosh. The movement of the leg into the groin was
voluntary and should have been punished accordingly. A yellow
card in this instance makes a mockery of VAR at a time when it
already has problems in being accepted on the PL. There has been
talk of a wrong use of VAR provoking problems on the terraces. I
listened to the last few minutes of the game on R5L. The United
fans were chortling 'V-A-R' whilst the Chelsea fans who stayed
behind were chorusing something less complimentary about VAR. We
do not need this. The VAR in this instance did not do his job
correctly and this must not be allowed to happen again.
>
--- End Quote ---
I do agree with what you say here. But I think we need to
recognise that VAR as a system did its job perfectly well for
the Maguire incident. The referee managed to miss a very
obvious red card. However, VAR gave him the clearest possible
evidence that it was violent conduct. Yet they still managed to
get it wrong. Taylor should certainly have looked at the
monitor if he felt he might have missed something but failed to
do his job. Even worse was the fact that Kavanagh could sit in
his chair and watch the incident on several replays and manage
to convince himself it was not an issue.
It really doesn't matter how good the technology is if those
operating it are incapable of using it properly. This is my
main gripe with VAR as it stands, and something I have
highlighted before on this forum. VAR may have its faults, such
as its offside application, but this was entirely human error.
[/quote]
What do you expect ? Our referees are making too many mistakes.
Who shall we get to oversee all these decisions to eradicate the
mistakes.
I know. Those same referees. What could go wrong ?
#Post#: 15917--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: JohnCoyle
Date: February 19, 2020, 9:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You can forgive a referee if he fails to see, or correctly
identify, an incident in real time. It's more difficult to
forgive one who has access to several replays of the incident,
often from different angles.
As an aside, if the Maguire incident had happened in a non-VAR
match (and assuming he hadn't been given a yellow card) would
the FA have brought a retrospective charge?
#Post#: 15919--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: February 19, 2020, 9:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JohnCoyle link ---
>
> You can forgive a referee if he fails to see, or correctly
identify, an incident in real time. It's more difficult to
forgive one who has access to several replays of the incident,
often from different angles.
>
> As an aside, if the Maguire incident had happened in a non-VAR
match (and assuming he hadn't been given a yellow card) would
the FA have brought a retrospective charge?
>
--- End Quote ---
Maguire wasn't given a yellow card. As I understand it, the
protocols around missed incidents are still in place in VAR
matches so he could still be charged. I'm not holding my
breath.
#Post#: 15921--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 19, 2020, 9:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It's difficult to argue I guess that no official saw the
incident (which I think is required for a retrospective charge?)
when VAR clearly looked at it.
I can understand the point about the referees being used but I
think there is a difference between looking at something on a
pitch in real time, perhaps with an imperfect view, compared to
looking at multiple replays on a monitor. I agree not every
current top referee will be good at it but you'd presume at
least some of them should be.
I see Arsene Wenger has suggested that former referees and
experienced players could be used as VARs, although whether that
would improve the situatoin is anyone's guess.
I suppose widening the field and training more people to become
specialists gives you a wider group to scrutinise and find out
who the best ones are. Obviously everyone makes mistakes but I
think a VAR who is getting more than the very occasional
decision wrong over a decent sample period should probably be
taken out of that role.
#Post#: 15976--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Matt
Date: February 20, 2020, 1:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I've just watched the highlights of this.
How hasn't Harry been charged by the FA for violent conduct?
#Post#: 15982--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 20, 2020, 3:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=LateTackle link=topic=1382.msg15910#msg15910
date=1582110199]
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=1382.msg15865#msg15865
date=1582040566]
> I have only seen the very briefest of highlights on Breakfast
TV this morning. How Maguire did not receive a red card, I
really don't know. Harry has claimed that he stuck out his leg
to stop the opponent from falling on him, but that imho is a
load of tosh. The movement of the leg into the groin was
voluntary and should have been punished accordingly. A yellow
card in this instance makes a mockery of VAR at a time when it
already has problems in being accepted on the PL. There has been
talk of a wrong use of VAR provoking problems on the terraces. I
listened to the last few minutes of the game on R5L. The United
fans were chortling 'V-A-R' whilst the Chelsea fans who stayed
behind were chorusing something less complimentary about VAR. We
do not need this. The VAR in this instance did not do his job
correctly and this must not be allowed to happen again.
>
--- End Quote ---
I do agree with what you say here. But I think we need to
recognise that VAR as a system did its job perfectly well for
the Maguire incident. The referee managed to miss a very
obvious red card. However, VAR gave him the clearest possible
evidence that it was violent conduct. Yet they still managed to
get it wrong. Taylor should certainly have looked at the
monitor if he felt he might have missed something but failed to
do his job. Even worse was the fact that Kavanagh could sit in
his chair and watch the incident on several replays and manage
to convince himself it was not an issue.
It really doesn't matter how good the technology is if those
operating it are incapable of using it properly. This is my
main gripe with VAR as it stands, and something I have
highlighted before on this forum. VAR may have its faults, such
as its offside application, but this was entirely human error.
[/quote]
What do you expect ? Our referees are making too many mistakes.
Who shall we get to oversee all these decisions to eradicate the
mistakes.
I know. Those same referees. What could go wrong ?
[/quote]
So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get to
oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
#Post#: 15983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: February 20, 2020, 6:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have a simple enough solution to which some of my previous
posts have alluded. The sensible answer is indeed simple; the
match referee should decide where it is a matter of opinion
rather than fact.
Offsides, ball over the line etc are factual decisions, although
the way offside has been messed about with you would hardly know
it. Fouls, penalties etc are always matters of opinion at the
end of the day, so the man who is the actual referee has to make
the decision as he is ultimately responsible. VAR may well wish
to alert him to something he may have missed, but that should
result in consulting the replays on the monitor and making the
decision himself. If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again
at Maguire's assault on the opponent he may well have issued the
red card, but it should be down to him, not someone miles away.
There is some logic here. VAR is very different from DRS in
cricket. Most things in cricket are fact, not opinion, even lbw
these days with ball tracking, albeit with a margin of error
factored in with 'Umpire's Call'. So the 3rd umpire can say
with certainty that a ball had been nicked or a player run out.
Football relies more on judgement, which is after all what
distinguishes good and bad referees. I would be very
uncomfortable for someone else making my subjective decisions
without me having another look.
#Post#: 15985--------------------------------------------------
Re: Anthony Taylor - Chelsea v Man United
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: February 21, 2020, 2:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1382.msg15982#msg15982
date=1582235961]
> So m'learned friend, answer the question. Who should we get
to oversee the decisions and eradicate mistakes? Perhaps ex
players/managers who never make mistakes? What could go wrong
with that ?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have a simple enough solution to which some of my previous
posts have alluded. The sensible answer is indeed simple; the
match referee should decide where it is a matter of opinion
rather than fact.
Offsides, ball over the line etc are factual decisions, although
the way offside has been messed about with you would hardly know
it. Fouls, penalties etc are always matters of opinion at the
end of the day, so the man who is the actual referee has to make
the decision as he is ultimately responsible. VAR may well wish
to alert him to something he may have missed, but that should
result in consulting the replays on the monitor and making the
decision himself. If, for instance, Atkinson had looked again
at Maguire's assault on the opponent he may well have issued the
red card, but it should be down to him, not someone miles away.
There is some logic here. VAR is very different from DRS in
cricket. Most things in cricket are fact, not opinion, even lbw
these days with ball tracking, albeit with a margin of error
factored in with 'Umpire's Call'. So the 3rd umpire can say
with certainty that a ball had been nicked or a player run out.
Football relies more on judgement, which is after all what
distinguishes good and bad referees. I would be very
uncomfortable for someone else making my subjective decisions
without me having another look.
[/quote]
I agree in principle to much that you have said, however, I do
think that it is a bit unfair in blaming Atkinson for any of
this when he was probably sat at home relaxing with a well
earned cuppa. :D
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