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#Post#: 15438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: February 5, 2020, 2:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1352.msg15430#msg15430
date=1580919828]
> [quote author=JohnCoyle link=topic=1352.msg15427#msg15427
date=1580918996]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1352.msg15388#msg15388
date=1580826712]
> Perhaps a longer term solution could be to start using those
who are close to retirement and train them to be VAR specialists
ahead of their retirement & then keep them on as the VAR's as
they retire. Some of them could also participate in assisting
with training/providing experience for the FIFA referees who
will need VAR experience both on the pitch and in the booth in
order to get UEFA appointments. It's not a quick fix solution
obviously but if it's started off now with those close to
retirement, in the next year or 2 it will start to fully take
shape.
>
--- End Quote ---
That seems an excellent idea. Incidentally, I don't think there
is any reason why being an assessor/ observer and a VAR should
be mutually exclusive.
[/quote]
I'm not sure being part of a referee's team i nthe VAR studio
one week and then assessing/observing him another would work
very well. I thin kthey needs to be a great measure of
objectivity on assessing/observing which might not be easy if
you were also part of the officiating team on occasions.
Very good idea about training those close to retirement for
specialist VAR roles
[/quote]
Fixed the quote thingamajigga for you!
I wonder if perhaps being a bit more objective and thinking more
like an assessor/observer when acting as VAR would actually
help.
One of the many(!) complaints seems to be that some feel there
is a reluctance to overturn an on field decision of a colleague
particularly when their roles may be swapped over the next week,
personally I'd not think that is something conscious on the part
of any of our referees, these are professional guys but maybe a
subconscious element of I don't know 'what if I was out there &
he was in here, would I have called the same in real time, would
I accept the VAR calling it wrong etc' type of thing is there.
Maybe it's not and people are just looking for excuses/offering
up suggestions as to why things rarely get overturned.
If VAR's looked at things with more of an assessor/observer
mindset that element would be gone (if it's even there). They
are already more detached and look at decisions simply as
right/wrong as a matter of course with no emotional attachment
(for want of a better expression) with the on field officiating
team.
Do you understand what I mean? Just throwing out a what if type
of suggestion anyway
[/quote]
Thank you bmb and thank you also for your comments here which
are very pertinent. On reflection I think being a VAR should be
a specialist role for which appropriate training and then
assessing should be offered. I consider it a complementary but
different skill set to being an on field referee.
#Post#: 15441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: rustyref
Date: February 5, 2020, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You certainly can't have observers doing VAR one week and
observing the next. How's that going to work if you gave the
referee a very poor mark the week before then this week you are
his eyes and ears in VAR?
I was approached to become a supply league observer when I was
still a level 3, I turned it down for the same reason. It
wouldn't be right if I observed someone one week then they were
on my line the week after, even though I'd like to think I am a
very fair observer there's still scope for conflict and making
it difficult for both parties.
#Post#: 15443--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: Hendo
Date: February 5, 2020, 4:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1352.msg15432#msg15432
date=1580921356]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1352.msg15430#msg15430
date=1580919828]
> [quote author=JohnCoyle link=topic=1352.msg15427#msg15427
date=1580918996]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1352.msg15388#msg15388
date=1580826712]
> Perhaps a longer term solution could be to start using those
who are close to retirement and train them to be VAR specialists
ahead of their retirement & then keep them on as the VAR's as
they retire. Some of them could also participate in assisting
with training/providing experience for the FIFA referees who
will need VAR experience both on the pitch and in the booth in
order to get UEFA appointments. It's not a quick fix solution
obviously but if it's started off now with those close to
retirement, in the next year or 2 it will start to fully take
shape.
>
--- End Quote ---
n
That seems an excellent idea. Incidentally, I don't think there
is any reason why being an assessor/ observer and a VAR should
be mutually exclusive.
[/quote]
I'm not sure being part of a referee's team i nthe VAR studio
one week and then assessing/observing him another would work
very well. I thin kthey needs to be a great measure of
objectivity on assessing/observing which might not be easy if
you were also part of the officiating team on occasions.
Very good idea about training those close to retirement for
specialist VAR roles
[/quote]
Fixed the quote thingamajigga for you!
I wonder if perhaps being a bit more objective and thinking more
like an assessor/observer when acting as VAR would actually
help.
One of the many(!) complaints seems to be that some feel there
is a reluctance to overturn an on field decision of a colleague
particularly when their roles may be swapped over the next week,
personally I'd not think that is something conscious on the part
of any of our referees, these are professional guys but maybe a
subconscious element of I don't know 'what if I was out there &
he was in here, would I have called the same in real time, would
I accept the VAR calling it wrong etc' type of thing is there.
Maybe it's not and people are just looking for excuses/offering
up suggestions as to why things rarely get overturned.
If VAR's looked at things with more of an assessor/observer
mindset that element would be gone (if it's even there). They
are already more detached and look at decisions simply as
right/wrong as a matter of course with no emotional attachment
(for want of a better expression) with the on field officiating
team.
Do you understand what I mean? Just throwing out a what if type
of suggestion anyway
[/quote]
Thank you bmb and thank you also for your comments here which
are very pertinent. On reflection I think being a VAR should be
a specialist role for which appropriate training and then
assessing should be offered. I consider it a complementary but
different skill set to being an on field referee.
[/quote]
They could do a lot worse than take a leaf out of Rugby Unions
books where specialist TMOs (many of them ex refs but nor
exclusively so) operate at international level and the system
works very well
#Post#: 15444--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 5, 2020, 4:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Presumably if current assessors became VARs then they
themselves would need to be assessed on the decisions they had
made.
>
> The pool of people doing the jobs would presumably also have
to increase to cover the relevant positions.
>
--- End Quote ---
VAR can be seen as very similar to assessing, imo. If I'm
assessing a young ref, I'm stood/sat in the ground somewhere
judging in real time every decision they make & deciding if I
think they have called it right or not so as to give them a
merit mark appropriate to their performance. Apart from not
intervening in real time to correct a decision what would really
be any different to me watching that same game sat in front of a
TV screen, with nice camera angles you don't get stood in a
cold, wet, muddy field in the back of beyond, and being able to
say to them in real time - I think that was a wrong call and
giving them the opportunity to re-evaluate it or telling them
that was/was not a pen, correct your call? I believe the
skillset & mindset are compatible between the 2 roles when you
look at it that way. All PL games are watched back by a team of
assessors anyway, assessors who don't go out and assess other
games so that can continue as normal, any assessor used in the
VAR booth, instead of a current official would also therefore be
assessed automatically, no different to how the VAR who is a
current official gets assessed now. The difference would mainly
be that retiring officials would supplement the VAR pool first
and have the additional assessors training and could be used for
both. I think it could work and I could of course be wrong and
it be just as much of a disaster as we have at times now. It
just seems feasible theoretically at least to me.
#Post#: 15445--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: bmb
Date: February 5, 2020, 4:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> You certainly can't have observers doing VAR one week and
observing the next. How's that going to work if you gave the
referee a very poor mark the week before then this week you are
his eyes and ears in VAR?
>
> I was approached to become a supply league observer when I was
still a level 3, I turned it down for the same reason. It
wouldn't be right if I observed someone one week then they were
on my line the week after, even though I'd like to think I am a
very fair observer there's still scope for conflict and making
it difficult for both parties.
>
--- End Quote ---
That would depend on what level you assess at. If you were
acting as VAR, that is PL level, they don't have match day
assessors attending any more & haven't for a number of years. If
you were also assessing when not VAR'ing you'd not be doing so
in the PL so you would not be assessing the same group of
referees as an assessor.
No current referee should ever be used as an assessor for the
very reasons you mention. I know in Hungary there are strict
rules about current referees assessing and it is not allowed,
I'm surprised it is not the same here.
#Post#: 15447--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: RCG
Date: February 6, 2020, 1:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Current referees, if available, should attend games as coach or
mentor. Much easier to create discussion over
decisions/incidents as there would be no judgement of them
written down. A coach/mentor over time builds up a feel of how
someone referees so can add useful insights and specific
training ideas
#Post#: 15448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: QuoCob
Date: February 6, 2020, 2:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=1352.msg15430#msg15430
date=1580919828]
> [quote author=JohnCoyle link=topic=1352.msg15427#msg15427
date=1580918996]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=1352.msg15388#msg15388
date=1580826712]
> Perhaps a longer term solution could be to start using those
who are close to retirement and train them to be VAR specialists
ahead of their retirement & then keep them on as the VAR's as
they retire. Some of them could also participate in assisting
with training/providing experience for the FIFA referees who
will need VAR experience both on the pitch and in the booth in
order to get UEFA appointments. It's not a quick fix solution
obviously but if it's started off now with those close to
retirement, in the next year or 2 it will start to fully take
shape.
>
--- End Quote ---
That seems an excellent idea. Incidentally, I don't think there
is any reason why being an assessor/ observer and a VAR should
be mutually exclusive.
[/quote]
I'm not sure being part of a referee's team i nthe VAR studio
one week and then assessing/observing him another would work
very well. I thin kthey needs to be a great measure of
objectivity on assessing/observing which might not be easy if
you were also part of the officiating team on occasions.
Very good idea about training those close to retirement for
specialist VAR roles
[/quote]
Fixed the quote thingamajigga for you!
I wonder if perhaps being a bit more objective and thinking more
like an assessor/observer when acting as VAR would actually
help.
One of the many(!) complaints seems to be that some feel there
is a reluctance to overturn an on field decision of a colleague
particularly when their roles may be swapped over the next week,
personally I'd not think that is something conscious on the part
of any of our referees, these are professional guys but maybe a
subconscious element of I don't know 'what if I was out there &
he was in here, would I have called the same in real time, would
I accept the VAR calling it wrong etc' type of thing is there.
Maybe it's not and people are just looking for excuses/offering
up suggestions as to why things rarely get overturned.
If VAR's looked at things with more of an assessor/observer
mindset that element would be gone (if it's even there). They
are already more detached and look at decisions simply as
right/wrong as a matter of course with no emotional attachment
(for want of a better expression) with the on field officiating
team.
Do you understand what I mean? Just throwing out a what if type
of suggestion anyway
[/quote]
A 'reluctance to overturn an on field decision' could be
remedied by the VAR encouraging the on field official to go and
have a look at the monitor? He isn't overturning, he is then
suggesting that there may be something additional that he/she
needs to look at before confirming the decision?
#Post#: 15457--------------------------------------------------
Re: Decisions - weekend 1/2 February
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 6, 2020, 11:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Another rather underwhelming media release - Chris FOy doesn't
comment on any of the decisions perceived to have ultimately
been incorrect!
HTML https://www.premierleague.com/news/1602843
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