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#Post#: 4198--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: ajb95
Date: January 16, 2019, 3:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> This keeps coming up. Clear and obvious does NOT apply for
offsides, it relates to when the decision could be in the
opinion of the referee.
>
> Offside is black and white, either the player was on or off,
there is no opinion involved.
>
--- End Quote ---
You say opinion is not involved but in the OPINION of the
linesman he was onside and correctly awarded. A different
official in his OPINION thinks it’s offside incorrectly. Time to
ditch the lines - they are confusing and unhelpful. When doing
offside the image needs to be stopped in line with the last part
of the body and in recent cases this isn’t the case!
#Post#: 4201--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: rustyref
Date: January 16, 2019, 4:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
a) there are no linesmen as you say …
b) they have paid a lot of money for proven technology. If we
are going to use technology then it has to be accepted as
infallible.
Technology is here and it is here to stay. People just need to
accept this as it will not be changing.
#Post#: 4202--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: January 16, 2019, 5:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> a) there are no linesmen as you say …
>
> b) they have paid a lot of money for proven technology. If we
are going to use technology then it has to be accepted as
infallible.
>
> Technology is here and it is here to stay. People just need
to accept this as it will not be changing.
>
--- End Quote ---
It appears that the technolology only relates to a grid at pitch
level and with a limited number of cameras. When the camera is
not in line with the last defender this means that there are
optical errors in relating the apparent alignment of the head
and the feet. These could be corrected in various ways but do
not seem to be being considered. Additionally there are, in any
measurement, errors and there appears to be no assessment of the
degree in error (e.g. by having a broader line and have any part
of the body lying within that line being regarded as within the
margin of error of the method of measurement). It is possible
for the technology to accomodate these issues, but they first
need to be recognised and then the attention needs to put in to
compensate for them.
#Post#: 4203--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: nemesis
Date: January 16, 2019, 5:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> This keeps coming up. Clear and obvious does NOT apply for
offsides, it relates to when the decision could be in the
opinion of the referee.
>
> Offside is black and white, either the player was on or off,
there is no opinion involved.
>
--- End Quote ---
What about the referee's judgement on whether a player is
interfering etc ?
#Post#: 4205--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 16, 2019, 5:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=100.msg4196#msg4196
date=1547673120]
> This keeps coming up. Clear and obvious does NOT apply for
offsides, it relates to when the decision could be in the
opinion of the referee.
>
> Offside is black and white, either the player was on or off,
there is no opinion involved.
>
--- End Quote ---
What about the referee's judgement on whether a player is
interfering etc ?
[/quote]
That would fall more into the opinion category - at
international level it would probably result in the referee
taking an On-Field Review if the VAR thought a clear and obvious
error had been made. OFRs are not normally required for offside.
#Post#: 4206--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 16, 2019, 6:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> This keeps coming up. Clear and obvious does NOT apply for
offsides, it relates to when the decision could be in the
opinion of the referee.
>
> Offside is black and white, either the player was on or off,
there is no opinion involved.
>
--- End Quote ---
Whilst I agree in principle (although a goalkeeper is either on
the line or off the line when saving a penalty but I doubt the
same approach will be taken to that!), there is presumably some
element of human involvement because I guess someone has to
decide when exactly the ball is played and make some
interpretation on the images provided (otherwise it would be
much quicker!)
I do think one issue is the technology seems to lack a bit of
credibility, such as the wonky lines at Huddersfield last
season. Dermot Gallagher's explanation that VAR offside lines
are only calibrated with the feet and ignores other parts of the
body is concerning and clarity needs to be given.
The BBC stated tonight that there will be some form of tactical
camera used by the Premier League next year which will improve
matters - if that's the case, why isn't it being used now?
#Post#: 4207--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: January 16, 2019, 6:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=100.msg4196#msg4196
date=1547673120]
> This keeps coming up. Clear and obvious does NOT apply for
offsides, it relates to when the decision could be in the
opinion of the referee.
>
> Offside is black and white, either the player was on or off,
there is no opinion involved.
>
--- End Quote ---
What about the referee's judgement on whether a player is
interfering etc ?
[/quote]
Didn't you mean to say opinion? ;)
#Post#: 4208--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: January 16, 2019, 7:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=100.msg3900#msg3900
date=1546963685]
> [quote author=QuoCob link=topic=100.msg3885#msg3885
date=1546932316]
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=100.msg3807#msg3807
date=1546724402]
>
> Why do VAR referees have to be actual referees? Opening up
the position to those who are way short of those fitness levels
and may not have the man-management skills of referees, such as
they are, will give a massively larger pool from which to source
the very best at making VAR decisions. It's such a different
skill that it's unlikely the best at one will also be the best
at the other.
>
--- End Quote ---
Agree, as long as the final decision remains with the on field
official to retain their ability to interpret the Law as is
required and appropriate.
[/quote]
Am I correct in thinking that none of the VAR decisions made
this weekend were actually reviewed by the onfield official?
I was at Burnley on Saturday and the whole situation was
farcical. Those of us who actually paid to go to the game had
any idea what was happening because Simon Hooper just stood in
the penalty area and then, after about 90 seconds, he blew the
whistle which Vydra thought was the signal to take the penalty
only then to be stopped in his tracks by Hooper's raised arm,
quickly followed by the AR's raised flag and offside was given
--not against Vydra but against Sam Vokes who had not interfered
with play at all ---the ball having gone way over his head.
At no point did Simon Hooper go to look at the incident and, on
viewing the other incidents, I don't think that any other
onfield official reviewed a decision.
Is this going to be the normal procedure?
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that offside was given against Vydra. Hence
there was no need for the referee t o look at the monitor.
I think the procedure in England will generally be that the
referee does not look at the monitor but accepts the information
from the VAR.
I know there has been mixed views on this. Personally I
generally think it helps for the referee to go and look - the
radio commentators for the Palace V Grimsby game were quite
confused by Atkinson suddenly pulling a red card out after he'd
shown a yellow. They were asking if it was for dissent, etc.
I think going to the monitor can help with the referee's
credibility, particularly when it's the second minute of a game,
and make it clearer what is happening (it would be different if
the officials were mic'ed up).
[/quote]
How will this work if say the referee has already cautioned a
couple of players for "orange" tackles but then another similar
tackle occurs which is not seen by the referee but is seen by
the reviewer (and which in his opinion is a red but would be
deemed by the referee as orange and a caution under the way he
has been refereeing the game)? Also presumably even if he looks
at the monitor the referee is not allowed to show a yellow
(which could also potentially be a second yellow for that
player).
#Post#: 4209--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: kelxref
Date: January 17, 2019, 2:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
On bruntyboys post about the « orange » cards and not going to
OFRs,
I think in the end we will have to change to the protocol used
in the World
Cup to avoid this potential inconsistency. I think I read
somewhere that the
Bundesliga attemped to avoid OFRs when they started with VAR but
abandoned
it after a few weeks for this very reason.
Also I do think it is possible to give a yellow card after an
OFR. I seem to recall
in the World Cup Ronaldo was given a yellow after Diedhiou was
asked to review
a slap (for a possible red card) and he deemed it worthy of only
a yellow card. So certainly
it appears to have been permissible under the protocols used at
the World Cup last year.
#Post#: 4215--------------------------------------------------
Re: The VAR thread
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 17, 2019, 7:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bruntyboy link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=100.msg3901#msg3901
date=1546964908]
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=100.msg3900#msg3900
date=1546963685]
> [quote author=QuoCob link=topic=100.msg3885#msg3885
date=1546932316]
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=100.msg3807#msg3807
date=1546724402]
>
> Why do VAR referees have to be actual referees? Opening up
the position to those who are way short of those fitness levels
and may not have the man-management skills of referees, such as
they are, will give a massively larger pool from which to source
the very best at making VAR decisions. It's such a different
skill that it's unlikely the best at one will also be the best
at the other.
>
--- End Quote ---
Agree, as long as the final decision remains with the on field
official to retain their ability to interpret the Law as is
required and appropriate.
[/quote]
Am I correct in thinking that none of the VAR decisions made
this weekend were actually reviewed by the onfield official?
I was at Burnley on Saturday and the whole situation was
farcical. Those of us who actually paid to go to the game had
any idea what was happening because Simon Hooper just stood in
the penalty area and then, after about 90 seconds, he blew the
whistle which Vydra thought was the signal to take the penalty
only then to be stopped in his tracks by Hooper's raised arm,
quickly followed by the AR's raised flag and offside was given
--not against Vydra but against Sam Vokes who had not interfered
with play at all ---the ball having gone way over his head.
At no point did Simon Hooper go to look at the incident and, on
viewing the other incidents, I don't think that any other
onfield official reviewed a decision.
Is this going to be the normal procedure?
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that offside was given against Vydra. Hence
there was no need for the referee t o look at the monitor.
I think the procedure in England will generally be that the
referee does not look at the monitor but accepts the information
from the VAR.
I know there has been mixed views on this. Personally I
generally think it helps for the referee to go and look - the
radio commentators for the Palace V Grimsby game were quite
confused by Atkinson suddenly pulling a red card out after he'd
shown a yellow. They were asking if it was for dissent, etc.
I think going to the monitor can help with the referee's
credibility, particularly when it's the second minute of a game,
and make it clearer what is happening (it would be different if
the officials were mic'ed up).
[/quote]
How will this work if say the referee has already cautioned a
couple of players for "orange" tackles but then another similar
tackle occurs which is not seen by the referee but is seen by
the reviewer (and which in his opinion is a red but would be
deemed by the referee as orange and a caution under the way he
has been refereeing the game)? Also presumably even if he looks
at the monitor the referee is not allowed to show a yellow
(which could also potentially be a second yellow for that
player).
[/quote]
I'm not sure I fully understand the question - the VAR looks at
everything anyway so if there were two similar tackles in the
8th and 82nd minute of the match, one of which resulted in the
referee showing a yellow card and the second of which the
referee didn't show a yellow card, the VAR should theoretically
either recommend a red card for both challenges if they think it
was SFP or allow the referee's decision to stand in both cases
if they don't think they were red card tackles.
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