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#Post#: 8001--------------------------------------------------
No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 12, 2026, 5:34 pm
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This is in reply to Mike, a part of what I once wrote on my
website years back. I just can’t be bothered to rehash the same
again and again, I am not Jed McKenna.
Mike, I see that you want to persuade me that what you and I
supposedly obtained is a big deal. I am not an urban buddha, and
no prophet (no prophets in own country, huh?), but here are the
big guns, so to speak…
“There is no such thing as enlightenment. The full appreciation
of that fact is, itself, enlightenment.”
Maruti Shivrampant Kambli, aka Nisargadatta
Yes, that guy Niz whom everyone quotes, but no one truly listens
to.
Didn't Jed McKenna say "You will never become enlightened"? He
didn’t finish the phrase, why scare away the audience? But the
ending is this: because no one can become something that has no
reality behind it.
OK, more:
This below was written in the 7th century AD by Linji Yixuan to
whom are attributed these famous sayings: "When hungry - eat,
when tired – sleep" and “If you see the Buddha on the road –
kill him”. He also founded one branch of Japanese Zen.
Linji is SPELLING IT OUT in the first phrase, and yet... that
pink elephant romping around in the distance is enticing, always
just that little bit out of reach.
I got these quotes after having arrived at the same. Just wanted
to see what our masters say on the matter. In between the lines
and quite directly, like in these passages.
Spare a minute to take this in:
“I tell you, there’s no Buddha, no Dharma, no practice, no
enlightenment. Yet you go off like this on side roads, trying to
find something. Blind fools! Will you put another head on top of
the one you have? What is it you lack?
Followers of the Way, I tell you there is no Dharma to be found
outside. But students don’t understand me and immediately start
looking inward for some explanation, sitting by the wall in
meditation, pressing their tongues against the roof of their
mouths, absolutely still, never moving, supposing this to be the
Dharma of the buddhas taught by the patriarchs. What a mistake!
If you take this unmoving, clean, and pure environment to be the
right way, then you will be making ignorance the lord and
master. A person of old said, “Bottomless, inky black is the
deep pit, truly a place to be feared!” This is what he meant.”
Linji Yixuan, aka Rinzai Gigen
I am not gonna write anything else in this topic.
#Post#: 8006--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: j(
Date: April 12, 2026, 7:02 pm
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I think if you told a seeker either in the beginning or middle
stages of their "enlightenement journey" they would flat out
argue with you about why you're wrong and why you should join
the enlightenement club because (insert spiritual beliefs).
I think it's the final thing a seeker doesn't want to admit to
being false. That they just truly aren't special. Whether they
talk a good game, write a sh*t ton of flowery words or whatever.
Just dropping the false self and being with what is as they say.
I can remember that being both terrifying as a prospect and
totally freeing as a reality.
Is what it is.
#Post#: 8088--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: biisuto
Date: April 25, 2026, 9:15 pm
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--- Quote from: Gromer link ---
>
> …
> Mike, I see that you want to persuade me …
> I am not gonna write anything else in this topic.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not sure why you believe I’m selling something. Not at all.
I’m sincerely interested in your (and others) take on the things
we discuss here. As you can see also, I’m not shy about robust
discussion on the topic and participate to the extent I am able.
And as I’ve never tired of reiterating: I write to externalise
the experience here, as inspirational outbursts (on the topics
we share) arise.
I also like to drill down into what you and others share here,
precisely because I want to know how unique or similar our
gropings beyond the realm of words are, as they are shared
herein.
I like to do it here precisely because we who come here are
familiar with and purportedly interested in this and similar
topics. That being the case, there’s a better possibility of
finding others here with similar interests, who also wish to
share about it… more than, say, striking up random conversations
with strangers on a bus.
But as you’ve done another drive-by attempt to control the
narrative I’ll settle with this as my closing remarks here (on
all these concurrent threads) also:
You cannot seriously hope to cite as authorities on the topic
buddhas you also claim to have killed.
…What “killing the Buddha” metaphor actually means (to my mind,
admittedly) is not at all the character assassination you seem
to believe it is, but rather the recognition that any awe
experienced because of the transcendent nature of the paradigm
shift must not rest upon the fingers - the humanity of the gurus
- and instead be properly directed at the moon to which they
point.
That being the case, contempt doesn’t seem an appropriate
response - nor an indicator of any kind or calibre of
‘achievement’… because (again) there is no achievement, as that
term is used.
What is called for, to my mind, is some level of gratitude for
the guidance… then simply moving on.
#Post#: 8091--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 26, 2026, 2:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mic link ---
>
> [quote author=Gromer link=topic=252.msg8001#msg8001
date=1776033246]
> …
> Mike, I see that you want to persuade me …
> I am not gonna write anything else in this topic.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not sure why you believe I’m selling something. Not at all.
I’m sincerely interested in your (and others) take on the things
we discuss here. As you can see also, I’m not shy about robust
discussion on the topic and participate to the extent I am able.
And as I’ve never tired of reiterating: I write to externalise
the experience here, as inspirational outbursts (on the topics
we share) arise.
I also like to drill down into what you and others share here,
precisely because I want to know how unique or similar our
gropings beyond the realm of words are, as they are shared
herein.
I like to do it here precisely because we who come here are
familiar with and purportedly interested in this and similar
topics. That being the case, there’s a better possibility of
finding others here with similar interests, who also wish to
share about it… more than, say, striking up random conversations
with strangers on a bus.
But as you’ve done another drive-by attempt to control the
narrative I’ll settle with this as my closing remarks here (on
all these concurrent threads) also:
You cannot seriously hope to cite as authorities on the topic
buddhas you also claim to have killed.
…What “killing the Buddha” metaphor actually means (to my mind,
admittedly) is not at all the character assassination you seem
to believe it is, but rather the recognition that any awe
experienced because of the transcendent nature of the paradigm
shift must not rest upon the fingers - the humanity of the gurus
- and instead be properly directed at the moon to which they
point.
That being the case, contempt doesn’t seem an appropriate
response - nor an indicator of any kind or calibre of
‘achievement’… because (again) there is no achievement, as that
term is used.
What is called for, to my mind, is some level of gratitude for
the guidance… then simply moving on.
[/quote]
Thank you for this measured response, Mike.
You said you are interested in the perspectives of others, and I
have conveyed my perspective above.
I gave examples of the people/masters who others may listen to,
since no one will ever listen to me (and nor should they). And I
won't listen to the masters, because to me these are normal
folks lost in and infatuated by their own understandings. Yes,
who pee and poo and f*ck and snore and.. die in the end.
And I see that you understand this. But then.. I am genuinely
curious as to why you would call it 'controlling the narrative'.
Perhaps, it's the manner in which I write that irritates you:
the obvious internal certainty about things that you may not
perceive in the same way, and not enough intellectual slice to
get your teeth into (you enjoy that much). I don't know.
I can clearly recall the moment when the light bulb went 'boom!'
'sh*t!' 'wow!' REALLY?? and it was a specific shift in how I
perceive this whole enlightenment thingy. I remember the room I
was in and what I was doing at the time. Before that I was like
you, waxing lyrical and vague and abstract. I wrote long texts
on the IGF, externalising my internal musings, being sure of my
mind transformation and not being sure what to do with it all.
Then a few weeks after I'd left the forum the penny dropped.
I've never had the same pair of eyes since and cannot seriously
consider the big E real. Once seen - cannot be un-seen, right?
I saw this massive paradigm created around a fluke of one man's
mind, with more and more minds adding to it. I have a real story
about how these legends slowly turn into shrines. It is
happening right here right now where I live. It is amusing to
observe the mini quasi-religious following in the making. I will
tell it another time, but it is absolutely illustrative of how
one person's mind revelation becomes many people's faith. And
should it really?
Incidentally, you never told anyone here how and what happened
in your case. Share your own shower room story? (Plato, mine was
the bedroom. :D )
#Post#: 8101--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Plato
Date: April 27, 2026, 8:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Gromer link ---
>
>
> Didn't Jed McKenna say "You will never become enlightened"? He
didn’t finish the phrase, why scare away the audience? But the
ending is this: because no one can become something that has no
reality behind it.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
From my perspective you've misinterpreted the ending here
(because it fits your perspective one would assume). Because
here, the ending is this: No "one" will be enlightened because
enlightenment is the complete understanding that there is no
"one" to attain enlightenment.
in other words it is the deletion of one's idea of a separate
self which initiates total freedom from the burden of "self". It
is "Freedom from the known" as J. Krishnamurti put it in his
book of the same title and that's what's here, freedom from what
all of "you" know. put a gun to my head, pull the trigger, I
can't/won't deny it. The catalyst for that shift in perception,
was Ked's insistence that I mistakenly felt an all-encompassing
need to be "special" and my embarrassed acknowledgement of such
is what opened the door to, and created the energy that drove,
my internal excavation into "who" needed to be special... Turns
out, no "one" needed to be special because there is no one home.
"I" turns out to be the bird in an empty bird cage.
What you call "reality" (the idea that there is only the self
from what I can glean) I see as a total falsehood, a mirage.
Albert Einstein had it right IMHO "Reality is merely an
illusion, albeit a very persistent one" that statement is more
accurate than all the words anyone can cobble together to try
and refute it, because "This" (the entity typing these letters,
what Mic calls "not human") has seen this I to be an illusion,
albeit a very persistent one...
PS. and yes, this mirage enjoys a cold beer and some inane
banter about the Utah hockey club or the latest painting by an
artist friend... even more so now because there is none of the
"ownership" and consequent happiness or disappointment of fandom
nor the "jealousy" of seeing someone in my field excel... It's
freedom from the "self" and it's inherent BS that I cherish, not
some insipid religion or belief system built off someone else's
understanding.
#Post#: 8102--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 27, 2026, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Plato link ---
>
> [quote author=Gromer link=topic=252.msg8001#msg8001
date=1776033246]
>
> Didn't Jed McKenna say "You will never become enlightened"? He
didn’t finish the phrase, why scare away the audience? But the
ending is this: because no one can become something that has no
reality behind it.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
From my perspective you've misinterpreted the ending here
(because it fits your perspective one would assume). Because
here, the ending is this: No "one" will be enlightened because
enlightenment is the complete understanding that there is no
"one" to attain enlightenment.
in other words it is the deletion of one's idea of a separate
self which initiates total freedom from the burden of "self". It
is "Freedom from the known" as J. Krishnamurti put it in his
book of the same title and that's what's here, freedom from what
all of "you" know. put a gun to my head, pull the trigger, I
can't/won't deny it. The catalyst for that shift in perception,
was Ked's insistence that I mistakenly felt an all-encompassing
need to be "special" and my embarrassed acknowledgement of such
is what opened the door to, and created the energy that drove,
my internal excavation into "who" needed to be special... Turns
out, no "one" needed to be special because there is no one home.
"I" turns out to be the bird in an empty bird cage.
What you call "reality" (the idea that there is only the self
from what I can glean) I see as a total falsehood, a mirage.
Albert Einstein had it right IMHO "Reality is merely an
illusion, albeit a very persistent one" that statement is more
accurate than all the words anyone can cobble together to try
and refute it, because "This" (the entity typing these letters,
what Mic calls "not human") has seen this I to be an illusion,
albeit a very persistent one...
PS. and yes, this mirage enjoys a cold beer and some inane
banter about the Utah hockey club or the latest painting by an
artist friend... even more so now because there is none of the
"ownership" and consequent happiness or disappointment of fandom
nor the "jealousy" of seeing someone in my field excel... It's
freedom from the "self" and it's inherent BS that I cherish, not
some insipid religion or belief system built off someone else's
understanding.
[/quote]
I may have added the ending but knowing Peter's nihilism I am
pretty sure he knows the facts.
You seem to think that self = ego. Kill the ego and there is no
self. Well, not so. I have a distinct impression that you guys
grabbed the wrong end of the spiritual stick, perhaps because
you've consumed volumes of spiritual literature.
Here:
There is no mind to control if the Self is realized. The Self
shines forth when the mind vanishes. In the realized man the
mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone exists. For the
mind, body and world are not separate from the Self. Can they be
other than the Self? When aware of the Self, why should one
worry about these shadows? How do they affect the Self?
(Ramana Maharshi, MG, 18.)
Ego is non-existent, otherwise you would be two instead of one –
you the ego and you the Self. You are a single, indivisible
whole.
(Ramana Maharshi, GR, 54.)
In short:
1. there is true Self, the one that people are looking for and
most struggle to find. Individual to every person and sort of
tailor-made to them. As I said.. I have found mine. it's a hoot.
2. Ego is a mental construct. It only exist in the mind as
relative to our earthly existence here: competition for
resources, greed, desire to succeed, to be the first one or the
best, to have the most expensive car or the most beautiful
partner, to be top scientist or top performer, to outdo your
neighbours' Christmas decorations and hosting the dinner for the
business partners, the golden iPhone and... you continue.
Otherwise - it does not exist. It does not exist because it is
not real. Does not exist in nature, can you find me a single
standing ego somewhere in the bushes or on the surface of the
lake or up in a cave? It is not real.
The problem with men of intellectual bend (including you, dear
Plat, although you also possess a good visceral sense) is this:
they tend to overcomplicate EVERYTHING.
Simplify. Truth is very simple, seriously. It is accessible even
to not very bright (in human life) people.
#Post#: 8103--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 27, 2026, 2:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Plato link ---
>
> lbert Einstein had it right IMHO "Reality is merely an
illusion, albeit a very persistent one" that statement is more
accurate than all the words anyone can cobble together to try
and refute it, because "This" (the entity typing these letters,
what Mic calls "not human") has seen this I to be an illusion,
albeit a very persistent one...
>
> the "self" and it's inherent BS that I cherish, not some
insipid religion or belief system built off someone else's
understanding.
>
--- End Quote ---
You need to check your quotes. Thing attributed to famous people
are often either changed or taken out of context. Einstein was a
proponent of physical reality as I am. I've become a f*cking
convinced materialist! ;D
Here, all the variants in context of the translation from
German:
Letter to Besso's family (March 1955) following the death of
Michele Besso, as quoted in Disturbing the Universe (1979) by
Freeman Dyson Ch. 17 "A Distant Mirror", p. 193
Sometimes misquoted as "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a
very persistent one."
Variant: "He has departed from this strange world a little ahead
of me. That means nothing. For us believing physicists, the
distinction between past, present and future is only a stubborn
illusion." Quoted in Einstein: His Life and Universe by Walter
Isaacson (2008), p. 540.
Variant: "Now he has departed from this strange world a little
ahead of me. That signifies nothing. For us believing
physicists, the distinction between past, present, and future is
only a stubbornly persistent illusion." Quoted in Albert
Einstein: The Miracle Mind by Tabatha Yeatts (2007), p. 116.
Variant: "In quitting this strange world he has once again
preceded me by a little. That doesn't mean anything. For those
of us who believe in physics, this separation between past,
present, and future is only an illusion, however tenacious."
Quoted in The Structure of Physics by Carl Friedrich von
Weizsäcker (1985), p. 288.
Variant: "Now he has departed a little ahead of me from this
quaint world. This means nothing. For us faithful physicists,
the separation between past, present, and future has only the
meaning of an illusion, though a persistent one." Quoted in
Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer (2002), p. 161.
Variant: "Now he has preceded me by a little bit in his
departure from this strange world as well. This means nothing.
For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between
past, present, and future is only an illusion, however tenacious
this illusion may be." Quoted in Einstein: A Biography by Jürgen
Neff (2007), p. 402
#Post#: 8104--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 27, 2026, 3:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Plato link ---
>
>
>
> PS. and yes, this mirage enjoys a cold beer and some inane
banter about the Utah hockey club or the latest painting by an
artist friend...
>
--- End Quote ---
Can you explain to me how calling yourself 'a mirage' and
reality an illusion makes it different from Frit's notions:
nothing exists, we are not real, there is no self and no world?
That same Frits you had disagreed with and whose incarnation
Kristen has just liked your post?
#Post#: 8105--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 27, 2026, 3:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is that part of the letter in German, how he really wrote
it:
"Nun ist er diesem seltsamen Weltenlauf etwas vorausgegangen.
Das bedeutet nichts. Für uns, die wir an die Physik glauben, ist
die Unterscheidung zwischen Vergangenheit, Gegenwart und Zukunft
nur eine hartnäckig andauernde Illusion."
:-*
#Post#: 8107--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Kings and No Buddhas
DIR By: Gromer
Date: April 27, 2026, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Kristen link ---
>
> A question for Gromer. Does it make you happy to always
wanting to be right? Even when you're not. You seem to feel the
need to go on and on until the opponent simply gives up. So tell
me, does that really make you happy? This is an honest question.
No offense, really.
>
> I used to be like you, convinced of my unlimited wisdom, but
now I am much happier knowing I know fvck all, other than my
direct experience. And we all have our own experience, our own
version of "truth" or "reality", but it's a mistake to take that
experience to be a universal experience, an absolute "truth" or
a written in stone "reality". Nobody is right, everybody is
wrong all the time. And that's cool. But don't make it a matter
of life and death. (En)lighten up, I'd say.
>
--- End Quote ---
Kristen, it makes me happy to know that I have conveyed my
understanding in the clearest way possible. Am I right? Well,
since it is my understanding that comes from direct experience
and insight, then yes, I am right. From another's POV I might be
wrong. But it makes no difference, because see the above - I am
happy to be able to convey my understanding in the clearest
terms.
No one gives up discussion, I think. One might have clear
persuasive argument/facts/personal recollections to compare with
what I expressed. If so, there will be a reply, a continuation
to the discussion. If not, the discussion stops. This is normal.
Perhaps, you do have such an argument? I would be happy to see
that.
I would also invite you to share your direct experience here,
why not? We might learn something from it.
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