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#Post#: 4153--------------------------------------------------
The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 14, 2018, 11:53 am
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I've been pouring over JBP stuff ever since his lecture and I
feel I've got a better understanding of his worldview and I see
how it actually is a way to maneuver through existence in a way
that resembles and dovetails nicely with Jed's version.
We can discuss how and why that is, point by point, although I'm
more interested in how UG's nihilism plays here, if at all. I
don't disagree with your take Mike, that you don't buy UG's
admonition to not seek enlightenment, it's like saying don't
grow... what else is there but growth or decay?
Jed's take (from this perspective) dovetails with UG's and seems
like an advance of sorts since it "allows" for a trying of
sorts, a plan if you will, even if that plan is to destroy
yourself and accept the shreds of self that survive as the new
vehicle for exploration of the dream. That vehicle will be
different for every self that takes the journey based on their
preparation toward adulthood prior, according to Jed.
But Jordan's take is that Nihilism is the anti-christ, the thing
to run from at all costs, the Agents in the Matrix, the one
thing that can take you down for good.
How does that square with either of the other two guys
philosophy?
#Post#: 4154--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Frits
Date: October 14, 2018, 4:45 pm
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The system we (apparently) live in is dual, so, to answer your
question, I'd say: it's not supposed to square. Every prophet is
inherently a false one and many prophets should contradict each
other to maintain dualism. My advice is always: believe no one,
find out for yourself.
#Post#: 4155--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 14, 2018, 5:45 pm
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--- Quote from: Frits link ---
>
> The system we (apparently) live in is dual, so, to answer your
question, I'd say: it's not supposed to square. Every prophet is
inherently a false one and many prophets should contradict each
other to maintain dualism. My advice is always: believe no one,
find out for yourself.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah, The answers are settled over here, have been for quite
awhile now, this is more like playing chess or Yahtzee,
something to do with some friends, nothing beyond that really
Frits, if someone wants to play along they will... ;)
#Post#: 4156--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: biisuto
Date: October 14, 2018, 6:50 pm
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I think you answered it yourself, Plato.
Remember that to those who have never gone all the way, nihilism
is viewed as an optical illusion or trick of the mind... some
unfortunate mental loop waiting to trap the unwary thinker and
resulting in the psychological disintegration of all that is
held to be substantial or of some inherent value... rather than
as it is: the disidentification with collective dream palaces
scaffolded upon air, glued together by emotion.
He’s not really ignorant, though, I think. He’s excellently
versed in Nietzsche and his “revaluation of all values”. My take
is he is a revolutionary but perhaps doesn’t want the blood of
those who would never make it anyway on his hands or to get shut
down in his efforts to spread the word, when the perceptive and
curious among them can do the math for themselves (although that
is more conjecture than fact. I perhaps can’t conceive of
someone that smart and articulate, a self-confessed depressive
and doctor of psychology NOT having stepped across the threshold
... it would be too maddening not to.)
Personally, I believe he’s found the vehicle for planting
Descartes smartest of smart bombs, in a mass way, into the minds
of those who can do the most with it: the young.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
#Post#: 4159--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Frits
Date: October 15, 2018, 7:59 am
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--- Quote from: Plato link ---
>
> Yeah, The answers are settled over here, have been for quite
awhile now, this is more like playing chess or Yahtzee,
something to do with some friends, nothing beyond that really
Frits, if someone wants to play along they will... ;)
>
--- End Quote ---
Aha, okay, well, I'm sorry to say I can't play this game with
you, cos I know nothing about or from JBP and if I see what you
guys write about him, I'm not really interested. I hardly read
or listen to anything these days. I like Paul Hedderman for
entertainment, I occasionally pick up a book by Jed for old
times sake (but feel no real need to buy his latest one)... I
watched a video of Tony Parsons yesterday, also for old times
sake since he was the first and the last (and therefor the only)
satsang guy (ever) I bought a ticket for -- and that was more
than 10 years ago.
Mmhh... This was a bit off topic, I guess... ah well, no one
here to give a sh1t. :P
#Post#: 4160--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 16, 2018, 9:44 am
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--- Quote from: biisuto link ---
>
> I think you answered it yourself, Plato.
>
> Remember that to those who have never gone all the way,
nihilism is viewed as an optical illusion or trick of the
mind... some unfortunate mental loop waiting to trap the unwary
thinker and resulting in the psychological disintegration of all
that is held to be substantial or of some inherent value...
rather than as it is: the disidentification with collective
dream palaces scaffolded upon air, glued together by emotion.
>
> He’s not really ignorant, though, I think. He’s excellently
versed in Nietzsche and his “revaluation of all values”. My take
is he is a revolutionary but perhaps doesn’t want the blood of
those who would never make it anyway on his hands or to get shut
down in his efforts to spread the word, when the perceptive and
curious among them can do the math for themselves (although that
is more conjecture than fact. I perhaps can’t conceive of
someone that smart and articulate, a self-confessed depressive
and doctor of psychology NOT having stepped across the threshold
... it would be too maddening not to.)
>
--- End Quote ---
This feels right, as I listen to him he occasionally drops into
"language" where I go "yes, you've got it!" and then runs off
into areas that we might all roll our eyes at... basically my
conjecture is that he understands the Understanding so well that
it appears that he's done the work and from a psychological
viewpoint he definitely has.
That being said, I don't believe he's "done the math" in the way
that Jed speaks of it, in fact, he's too busy building that
massive scaffolding around the abyss (that you talked about
years ago) to realize that it's the abyss that brings ultimate
clarity.
I think this is one (of many) elements that Jed warned about so
well in the trilogy, that there are sooo many
guru's/leaders/teachers out there that seem to have it figured
it out and theres no doubt that they do have something going on,
it may even help you dream a better dream but it's not IT.
You've captured that quite well, it does seem maddening to stop
short but if you don't know that there's further?
#Post#: 4161--------------------------------------------------
The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: biisuto
Date: October 16, 2018, 7:35 pm
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“Dream a better dream” is it. That’s all Jordan is trying to
help us with. I agree with what you wrote entirely, especially
with the scaffolding- that’s exactly what I’m seeing...and maybe
he’s not done the math either, but that’s a lot of insanity to
hang onto, over a long career.
If we’re going to dream anyway, why not make it a better
dream..? What else is there?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
#Post#: 4162--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Frits
Date: October 17, 2018, 3:43 am
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--- Quote from: biisuto link ---
>
> If we’re going to dream anyway, why not make it a better
dream..? What else is there?
>
--- End Quote ---
The thing is -- and we can only "see it" when we do; so most of
you are going to disagree with me and label me with all kinds of
nonsense (and please do if you need to, that's cool) -- the
thing is that it is not "we" who are dreaming, this is not "our
dream". It (which is everything) is all dreaming and we are
therefore also the dreamed. So you may want a nicer dream, and
it may look like a nicer dream for a while, but it will not last
because nothing within the dreaming does.
In short, you are part of the dream and not that which is
dreaming.
You'll see it when you see it and not a second before that, your
mind can't grasp it and you cannot rationally get it. ;)
#Post#: 4163--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: biisuto
Date: October 17, 2018, 8:37 am
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Thank you, Fritz.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
#Post#: 4164--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Dovetailing of Jed and Jordan... But UG?
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 17, 2018, 11:07 am
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--- Quote from: Frits link ---
>
> [quote author=biisuto link=topic=148.msg4161#msg4161
date=1539736552]
> If we’re going to dream anyway, why not make it a better
dream..? What else is there?
>
--- End Quote ---
The thing is -- and we can only "see it" when we do; so most of
you are going to disagree with me and label me with all kinds of
nonsense (and please do if you need to, that's cool) -- the
thing is that it is not "we" who are dreaming, this is not "our
dream". It (which is everything) is all dreaming and we are
therefore also the dreamed. So you may want a nicer dream, and
it may look like a nicer dream for a while, but it will not last
because nothing within the dreaming does.
In short, you are part of the dream and not that which is
dreaming.
You'll see it when you see it and not a second before that, your
mind can't grasp it and you cannot rationally get it. ;)
[/quote]
I think this brings up the crux of what a lot of the discussion
here has tried to illuminate, i.e. choice vs non-choice. Frits,
did you choose to write this post and then choose whether or not
to actually post it? There is definitely thought around what we
all might call "you" as there is in any post here, for all the
talk of us all being "not two" we all still express ourselves in
the dual.
So, are you having those thoughts, dreaming those thoughts or
are they being manifested through you by the infinite?
They don't seem like thoughts the infinite would conjure, they
seem to be coming from whatever personality is left over from
the work you've been doing. Hence with one foot in and one foot
out or being in the world but not of the world, aren't we forced
to engage the dream (even though we are part of it) from a
dualistic position? From within then, we engage whatever
personality we have to interface with? And within that framework
we make choices using the "dream of I" interface? Since the only
other option is non-movement and silence otherwise known as
death?
I've argued from this point before, that we actually make no
choices, all choices have been made prior to any "you" making
them based on the myriad of structures that have gone into
creating the "I". All of those inputs, genetic,biological,
nurture and experience build the machine that makes the choices,
they are programmed into the system and that is what makes the
choice or actually non-choice because with all that programming
there actually isn't a choice.
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