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#Post#: 3691--------------------------------------------------
Mindfullness
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 8, 2017, 6:16 am
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I find it interesting that the Buddhist ideal of cultivating
mindfulness is now ubiquitous with the concept of a path to
enlightenment or awakening. As if there is a formula of how to
think your way to these states, "don't attach to this" or "don't
feel this emotion".
Here it is exactly the opposite, chasing down Ramana's dictum of
"who am I" and going all the way down to the bottom of the self
created a sense of mindlessness
In the mindfulness quandary it's like trying to tame a wild
stallion while you are riding it, here in this mind that was not
only improbable it was impracticable, I remember before Jeds
books I used to try and use Ekhart Tolle's advice in the Power
of Now but I and a friend both found that breaking mind to the
halter and staying in the Now was utterly impossible. Even
Tolle, who advocated this concept with his disciples didn't come
by it through that channel, it came through a God consciousness
event, so why teach a plodding dogma of Mindfulness then?
Because you can't teach a God Consciousness event.
But on the other hand you can teach one to dig and it's the
consistent digging, one shovelful tossed out at a time, that can
yield results, Ramana's "who am I" or Jed's rephrased "what is
me" Nisargadatta's "I am That" These admonitions carry weight,
after the fact if not before. Where the ego is always spiraling
up, these lead one down, to the cornerstones that hold up the
ego's house of cards and when pried out the structure caves
in...
Leaving a devastated ego and total abject humility. The worst
possible scenario for the ego but the best possible place for
mindlessness. The mind is like a trained dog, and ego had been
running that dog and training it for defense all it's life.
During the disolution of ego, it's faux master is absent for a
time, this is where the mind goes back to being a tool, used
when needed, dropped (mindlessness) when not, the body knows
what to do and when to do it, the mind is not necessary for 95%
of human obligations, chopping wood and carrying water.
No mind is the state that Ramana sought, where the infinite
resides. So is mindfulness then just a religious dogma for the
unwashed masses? A good dictum from a psychological viewpoint to
help people "live a good life"? Or just another box canyon to
ensnare those looking for more?
#Post#: 3692--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 8, 2017, 1:25 pm
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Concerning the post above (I don't delete posts) I had just
heard a big wig of non dual going on and on about mindfulness
and wanted to vent about it, hence the post. I'm not actually
asking those questions for any purpose other than to stimulate a
conversation, it's clear what happened/happens over here... I
guess I am just constantly shocked at how unclear it seems
everywhere else.
#Post#: 3693--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: Frits
Date: October 8, 2017, 3:47 pm
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--- Quote from: Plato link ---
>
> Concerning the post above (I don't delete posts) I had just
heard a big wig of non dual going on and on about mindfulness
and wanted to vent about it, hence the post. I'm not actually
asking those questions for any purpose other than to stimulate a
conversation, it's clear what happened/happens over here... I
guess I am just constantly shocked at how unclear it seems
everywhere else.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, it is mind-boggling how unclear and misunderstood it is by
most people in the spiritual arena. But that is because there
actually was a paradigm-shift between when I was searching and
when the searching stopped, or ended, or vanished. It's not that
I got my questions answered, the questions simply weren't there
anymore. It's a whole different way of perceiving. I can't speak
for you, but I find what's absolutely clear to me seems to be
incomprehensible to others. What's obvious to me, they don't see
and don't get.
But on mindfulness, that is of course, to use Jed's vocabulary,
a tool of Maya to keep people in the herd. Well, anyway, that's
how I see it. How could a mind be full when there is no mind?
Seriously?
#Post#: 3696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: j(
Date: October 9, 2017, 12:02 am
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Let's see if I can hone in my two posts from earlier...
First we've presumed that a state of no mind is desirable/the
ultimate state...ex Ramana did it, "it's where infinity resides"
plus it just feels really nice as opposed to being mentally
consumed.
Second we've seemingly determined that being mindful is
synonymous with being lost in thought. Being mindful is simply
becoming aware and taking back attention.
The state of "mindlessness" most closely associated with jedism
could be described more accurately as non attachment, to
outcome... and then some.
But without settling on absolutes it's not unreasonable to say
that they could (and do) co exist. It would be correct to say
that we can entertain both at the same time by both being
deliberate (aware/mindful) in our actions and yet unattached
(mindless) to the outcome.
#Post#: 3697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 9, 2017, 1:28 am
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--- Quote from: j( link ---
>
> Let's see if I can hone in my two posts from earlier...
>
> First we've presumed that a state of no mind is desirable/the
ultimate state...ex Ramana did it, "it's where infinity resides"
plus it just feels really nice as opposed to being mentally
consumed.
>
> Second we've seemingly determined that being mindful is
synonymous with being lost in thought. Being mindful is simply
becoming aware and taking back attention.
>
> The state of "mindlessness" most closely associated with
jedism could be described more accurately as non attachment, to
outcome... and then some.
>
> But without settling on absolutes it's not unreasonable to say
that they could (and do) co exist. It would be correct to say
that we can entertain both at the same time by both being
deliberate (aware/mindful) in our actions and yet unattached
(mindless) to the outcome.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well said, it doesn't really address the core of what I was
after though which is; (and maybe your experience is different)
the two differing paths to awakening and which is actually
effective i.e. trying to tame a bucking bronco with mindfulness
(didn't come close here) and Ramana/Nisargadatta/Jed's slicing
through the Gordian knot (changed everything here).
Which is more effective, trying to cut each head off of the 1000
headed Hydra one at a time or go for it's heart and get it over
with i.e. dealing with every thought as it arises, or destroying
the mechanism that latches on to thoughts? The first option can
be done in theory (I guess in calm times) but not in this mind
with what I was going through at the time (Wife;s infidelity,
Separation, best friend and wife running off together).
Efforting Mindfulness as a solution (via Tolle, Byron Katie) in
that state of mind, had me on the edge of suicide. I had
experienced a G/C event during all this so I knew it was
possible to acquire "the peace that passeth understanding" while
the mind is in complete turmoil but it wasn't abiding. All that
pain/anger/hurt/betrayal had me searching every spiritual avenue
all day everyday for two and a half years before I stumbled on
Damnedest and subsequently Nis and Ram (a version of Hinduism?
Really? Pretty much the last place I looked).
I guess what I'm saying is, Mindfulness works now because mind
is finally not running the show, mindfulness didn't/couldn't
create that schism of mind (watcher and watched) it came about
with 8 months of hard core S/A, some support from fake Jed and a
bit of grace. Mindfulness is now just part of the scenery, no
effort required.
So which would you choose, a lifetime of trying to be mindful of
every thought that arises or mindfulness by the bushel without
any effort?
It's the same as in Damnedest when the Buddhist guy and Jed are
talking, he's trying to have non-attachment (which is still an
attachment) and Jed says, kill yourself (T/R) and you'll have
non-attachment galore.
#Post#: 3698--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: Frits
Date: October 9, 2017, 4:01 am
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Just my two cents, although I think Plato already said something
the same. My "believe" is that you cannot "get to" mindlessness
(which is awesome) through mindfulness, but when you "get to"
mindlessness (which is, again, awesome) you get mindfulness
whenever you want it and you can shut mindfulness down when you
don't want it or need it.
So, in short, to me, mindfulness is not the way, but it's
something you get for free at the end of the road.
So in answer to J('s sort of question:
--- Quote from: j( link ---
>
> But without settling on absolutes it's not unreasonable to say
that they could (and do) co exist. It would be correct to say
that we can entertain both at the same time by both being
deliberate (aware/mindful) in our actions and yet unattached
(mindless) to the outcome.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, but only from the perspective if mindlessness. You can be
mindful from mindlessness, but not mindless from mindfulness.
So, if you want to be really mindful you need to "get to" the
end of the road first and blow your mind away.
#Post#: 3703--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: j(
Date: October 9, 2017, 9:25 am
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Nice! I do see what you guys are saying. I'd like to look at
this a little closer.
Steve, you said....
--- Quote from: Plato link ---
>
>
> Well said, it doesn't really address the core of what I was
after though which is; (and maybe your experience is different)
the two differing paths to awakening and which is actually
effective i.e. trying to tame a bucking bronco with mindfulness
(didn't come close here) and Ramana/Nisargadatta/Jed's slicing
through the Gordian knot (changed everything here).
>
> Which is more effective, trying to cut each head off of the
1000 headed Hydra one at a time or go for it's heart and get it
over with i.e. dealing with every thought as it arises, or
destroying the mechanism that latches on to thoughts?
>
> ...
>
> So which would you choose, a lifetime of trying to be mindful
of every thought that arises or mindfulness by the bushel
without any effort?
>
--- End Quote ---
This is where it gets subtle, I'm curious if you still see these
as two separate paths and if you could have ever gotten where
you are without a lifetime of trying to "tame the mind" with
mindfulness. I'm sure you see that one lends itself to the other
and that they are not independent paths to anything but rather
BOTH play an integral part in the awakening process.
Frits, you said...
--- Quote from: Frits link ---
>
> You can be mindful from mindlessness, but not mindless from
mindfulness.
>
> So, if you want to be really mindful you need to "get to" the
end of the road first and blow your mind away.
>
--- End Quote ---
Is that a true statement? Not to nitpick but to focus in
here...the process of SA required/requires and extreme amount of
mindfulness/awareness. The fire was started by that very spark.
If there were no awareness of...there would be no...
In my experience, you don't get to one without the other and the
relief felt is precisely to the degree that there was resistance
or aversion to one state or the other to begin with. Its the
openness to experience "the one/god/yourself" in all of it's
forms that feels like a relief because of the release of
resistance built up to it in the first place. Suppression causes
tension. Emotions/reactions if allowed to run their course
eventually run out of energy. They steer the ship. Suppression
keeps them right there ready to emerge the second they are not
being repressed and you never move, never progress, never
process and move on. If you just let them, they play out on
their own. Without effort. They show you, you. Subtle but if you
look closely you realize that it's all the same thing ❤
you're either on board or you're busy paddling upstream.
#Post#: 3704--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: Frits
Date: October 9, 2017, 9:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: j( link ---
>
> Is that a true statement? Not to nitpick but to focus in
here...the process of SA required/requires and extreme amount of
mindfulness/awareness. The fire was started by that very spark.
If there were no awareness of...there would be no...
--- End Quote ---
I can only speak for myself, but my SA had nothing to do with
mindfulness, because mindfulness (in Buddhism, and that's the
only mindfulness there is) is about controlling and taming the
mind, and my SA was about letting everything out and let the
mind blow itself to oblivion. So, no I don't agree. I hesitate
to use the term 'awareness', cos that implies a someone
(mind/ego/you/god?) to be aware of something else... but that
cannot be if there is no two.
But that is my experience.
--- Quote from: j( link ---
>
> In my experience, you don't get to one without the other and
the relief felt is precisely to the degree that there was
resistance or aversion to one state or the other to begin with.
Its the openness to experience "the one/god/yourself" in all of
it's forms that feels like a relief because of the release of
resistance built up to it in the first place. Suppression causes
tension. Emotions/reactions if allowed to run their course
eventually run out of energy. They steer the ship. Suppression
keeps them right there ready to emerge the second they are not
being repressed and you never move, never progress, never
process and move on. If you just let them, they play out on
their own. Without effort. They show you, you. Subtle but if you
look closely you realize that it's all the same thing ❤
you're either on board or you're busy paddling upstream.
>
--- End Quote ---
This, what you are saying, comes from apparent "mind" figuring
things out... and that is not it, in my experience. I don't
recognize anything you say as my personal experience, other than
it seemingly being a mild New Age thought system. And that's
cool, if that works for you. But when the mind blows there
simply is nothing there to be full about, there's nothing that
can resist anything, so that has nothing to do with mindfulness,
because there is no mind (there never was, really).
Mind in many ways is the "problem", so it's better not to be to
full about it. :)
#Post#: 3705--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: Plato
Date: October 9, 2017, 10:17 am
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Frits has nailed this in both his posts, from my perspective.
There is a place for mindfulness, it helps people who are
struggling with their mind. It's a psychological tactic to help
someone live a better life, in the dream.
T/R, or whatever you want to call it is the total annihilation
of ego/mind by seeing it doesn't exist, when I used to wake up
it was to a cacophony of thoughts, fears, anxiety and the like,
now when my eyes open in the morning it's to sunlight peering
through a window, the feel of the covers against my skin, the
sense of a full bladder. in other words the world that ego/mind
had created disappeared. What is left is experience without
filters and judgements. Silence.
Nothing changed, except consciousness is now here without the
clusterfvck overlay of mind/ego clouding it out of existence.
No way you get that through meditation and mindfulness, I tried.
It might seem good in the moment but wait till the first big
ship comes by and drops it's anchor on your hull, it won't be
smooth sailing, I guarantee it.
Without the mind there is no ship, yours nor anyone else's.
And... Paradoxically you still get to use the mind, need to do
some math? There it is ready rested and willing, it hasn't been
chewing on a million different problems all day and night.
#Post#: 3706--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mindfullness
DIR By: j(
Date: October 9, 2017, 11:05 am
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I see guys...both replies and the thread origin were bourne of
something being done/said in a contradictory manner to your
point of view. But yet claim an abiding state of no mind?
Really? That's called dissociation not enlightenment.
I think you may want to re evaluate your definition of
mindfulness. It's not a magic Buddhist trick, it's simple
attention and awareness. Also the ascribed value placed on
"mindlessness" is misplaced as if thought were bad. Frits says
"mind is the problem" I say if I see a problem I don't dismiss
it until it sneaks up at a later date I go in and figure out why
I've labeled it as such.
I simply said use the mind when needed and discard it when it's
not. But yes of course "that's not it." You're both a wonderful
case in point. What you resist persists.
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