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#Post#: 75380--------------------------------------------------
Brake confusion
DIR By: bladderwrack
Date: September 22, 2013, 3:19 am
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Hello I have a 64 109 truck. The previous owner put new brakes
all round pipes, mc , shoes and wheel cylinder the brakes sort
of work but not great . I've bled them twice but still poor ,
spongey like there's air in there . Problem is on the front
wheel cylinders bleed screw is behind a bolt on the swivel
housing at the bottom is this positioned right . On mine the
bleed nipple is on the bottom cylinder facing aft. In the book
the backplate appears rotated to allow access and the nipple is
facing forward . So what is the correct position of wc 's on the
front does nipple go top or bottom and in forwards or back
position . Once I've sorted this I'll try bleed again .!!
#Post#: 75417--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: Bert the Bodger
Date: September 22, 2013, 2:02 pm
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Such a query would normally go in the Tech section but you are
new...
This subject-LWB brakes and the bleeding thereof-is a perennial
on here (and on lesser LR fora). Search the site. All aspects of
your query have been covered and re-covered.
I do not have a LWB but my 88 has TLS front brakes. In brief you
need to repipe your brakes so that your nipples are at the top.
The feed goes to either port on the bottom, the bridge pipe
leaves the other port and goes to whichever is most convenient
on the top, and the nipple lives in the remaining port at the
top.
If you leave the pipework as it is you are on a hiding to
nothing chasing air down over in defiance of the laws of
physics.
Richard
#Post#: 75419--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: bladderwrack
Date: September 22, 2013, 2:11 pm
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Thanks Richard I was hoping someone would say something like
that, I'll get on to it tomorrow cheers
#Post#: 75423--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: Albert Ross
Date: September 22, 2013, 2:20 pm
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It all depends which hole has been used for the pipe to enter.
Personally, if that is all in doubt, I would pop the drums off
and check the shoes are handed correctly.... They are handed
cylinders, and if fitted on the wrong sides, mean you stop
better backwards then forwards.
#Post#: 75425--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: estwdjhn
Date: September 22, 2013, 2:41 pm
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--- Quote from: Bert the Bodger link ---
>
> In brief you need to repipe your brakes so that your nipples
are at the top. The feed goes to either port on the bottom, the
bridge pipe leaves the other port and goes to whichever is most
convenient on the top, and the nipple lives in the remaining
port at the top.
> If you leave the pipework as it is you are on a hiding to
nothing chasing air down over in defiance of the laws of
physics.
>
> Richard
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry, but this is utter hogwash. I, and many thousands of
others have managed to make the original system work perfectly
well with the bleed screws at the bottom.
The trick(s) to getting decent pedal with 109 brakes goes as
follows:
Adjust all the shoes up properly. The biggest cause, in my
experience, of poor pedal travel is badly adjusted rear brakes.
Bleed the back up first.
Then bleed the front up, a wheel at a time, ideally with an
assistant. Do this with the drums off the side you're bleeding,
holding the cylinders right in while pushing the pedal down
slowly with the bleed screw open, then do up the bleed screw
before releasing either the pedal or the cylinders.
It's a right performance, but pretty much always works.
One further thing - if you have a non servo master cylinder,
check the pedal height settings - it's possible to set it up so
that the master cylinder doesn't get a full stroke before the
pedal hits the floor. If this happens, you tend to find the bite
point is either on the floor, or on the second pump.
#Post#: 75426--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: Gozo_Joseph
Date: September 22, 2013, 2:53 pm
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i agree with est... .
mine has nipples at the bottom and they kind of are too close to
the track rod link. the system is air tight i suppose. but
fingers crossed any bad gremlin may develop overnight.
i had spongie pedal and some months ago took the plunge at
resetting the shoes and took a whole lot of time. dusting wiping
cleaning shoes etc and then adjusting. now there is a nice tight
pedal. (not as responsive as a power assisted setup or a disc
setup but with little travel.
joe
#Post#: 75434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: bladderwrack
Date: September 22, 2013, 4:23 pm
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Decisions , decisions not sure at all now might just try to
adjust pedal first off and then decide next move . So i can put
the bleed nipple where i want top/ bottom forward or aft because
at present it is behind a bolt on swivell at the rear . Its good
to hear conflicting views very helpful.
#Post#: 75440--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: big-chris
Date: September 22, 2013, 6:36 pm
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I also agree with Mr Eastwood, the standard setup works just
fine for me too, never have a problem with bleeding the brakes,
never have to take the drum off the front to do so? I did once
think about re-piping the front so the nipple was on the top
cylinder but saw sense and left the bloody thing alone... Mr
Land rover spend a few quid developing the system and found it
all worked as it should with the nipple at the bottom, makes me
smile why people change what has been tested and proven by the
manufacturer thinking they know better???? just don't have a
bump with modified brakes, if the rozza's get old of it your in
the shit......
Anyway, I think your problem may be the rear shoes :-? they are
handed! many don't know it and so just build them up as there is
only a very slight difference, the snail cam adjuster sits
slightly different on the left and right shoe, you may have two
rights on one side and two lefts on the other, if so you will
never be able to get a good peddle because the snail cams will
be adjusted in an unbalanced way. On each rear hub, both cams
should adjust around the same amount, if one has to be adjusted
much more than the other than you probably have your shoes mixed
up as above...... :popcorn:
#Post#: 75448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: Bert the Bodger
Date: September 23, 2013, 1:35 am
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The vast majority of vehicle manufacturers design their braking
systems so that the bleed nipples are at the highest possible
point. The reason for this is self apparent. LR, for some
inexplicable reason, put the nipples at the lowest point on
their TLS brakes. The design error is easily rectified by simple
re piping. Dozens of TLS owners have reported difficulty in
obtaining a decent pedal upon bleeding with the standard set up.
There could very easily be other factors influencing the
difficulty in this case-and those other cases. All I can say is
that I when I went from SLS to TLS it seemed daft not to
incorporate the modification.
There are pics of just this modification there have been posted
on here fairly recently.
My assumption was that you'd got all the rest of the components
on the correct side of the vehicle.
My other experience of altering piping on a different LR was
with a 2a (or 2b ) FC but it was a long time ago. Memory
suggests that there was a 'T' piece splitting the feed to the
cylinders. We did away with the T and piped as per I have
suggested you do and the difficulty in getting rid of air from
the lower cylinder was dispensed with.
John Eastwood has an interesting LR which some people might be
reluctant to take as a role model/exemplar.
Richard
#Post#: 75454--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brake confusion
DIR By: Albert Ross
Date: September 23, 2013, 3:42 am
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My 109 brakes are all standard and Brit part stuff too. I can
get a pedal........
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