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#Post#: 66955--------------------------------------------------
Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: ProDave
Date: July 4, 2013, 2:51 pm
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so today I fitted deluxe seats in my cab.
I'm still wanting a rear seat for the few times 4 of us want to
go in the Landy.
So could I put one of my old cab seats in as a side facing rear
seat?
It would be pretty easy to make the necessary brackets. Being
side facing it won't need seatbelts.
But would it be legal? Or is is supposed to have some type
approval nonsense?
#Post#: 66957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: Lurch
Date: July 4, 2013, 2:54 pm
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For me, I would fit demountable forward facing seats with belts,
Vidal has done this to his 80" take a look at his thread.
#Post#: 66962--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: mr.scruff
Date: July 4, 2013, 3:03 pm
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Ask GeneM.... rofl ;D
(Sorry Gene)
I would just put a bench seat in the back to be on the safe
side.
#Post#: 66963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: Albert Ross
Date: July 4, 2013, 3:06 pm
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Seats are over-rated, what's wrong with the floor?
#Post#: 66966--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: genem
Date: July 4, 2013, 3:14 pm
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Side facing seats are legal and require no seatbelts. Thousands
of landrovers were produced like that. Bolt through the seatbox
to a decent sized "spreader" underneath and you are fine. I've
had a succession of them, all fine with MOT etc. You may want to
think about how you will tell your Insurance tho. Many companies
do not like them. Leaves the back still useful for lugging
stuff. If you are carrying kids at all or adults often then its
the forward facing seats option and bye-bye load carrying space.
If you want bored to death there is a three page saga on this
subject on the EMLRA forum where I'm arguing with some bloke who
is adamant that there is some illegality about it all but will
not say what, while posting scans of out of print books and
nonsense from 1950s court cases...
A bloke posted this useful letter from DfT, which basically says
the above but with "advice" that suggests you should just buy a
Eurobox.
Had this email from the Department for Transport last night (was
passed around from a few different departments before being
directed towards them). Their response is:
There is nothing to stop you carrying out a modification such as
this. .However, you should ensure that any work you carry out
conforms to the requirements of the Road Vehicles (Construction
and Use) Regulations 1986 and the road vehicle lighting
regulations 1989.
You may also want to have a conversation with your vehicles
manufacturer to ensure that this work can be carried out to your
vehicle and if so it would need to be carried out by a
recognised garage. Also you must report all changes to DVLA. You
need to refer to the DVLA website for further information.
(
HTML http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/)
They may also wish to inspect the
vehicle.
HTML http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Ow
... DG_4022054
You may also want to contact your insurance company and inform
them of the changes.
I attach an information sheet which anwers the questions you
raise.
The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of
the law; that is a matter for the courts. Enforcement of road
traffic law is an operational matter for individual Chief Police
Officers and their officers can issue verbal warnings, fixed
penalty notices or report the motorist for formal prosecution.
The contents of the information sheet is below:
Converting a Van to Carry Passengers in the Rear
Statement
This document provides general guidance and advice on the
legislative requirements in Great Britain relating to carrying
passengers in the rear of vans. Every effort has been made to
ensure that it is factually correct but recipients should check
with the producers of this document if they are unsure about the
validity of a particular regulation after the date of
publication or if they have reason to believe any part is not
correct or is now out of date.
General requirements
Q. I want to convert my van to carry passengers in the rear. Are
there any regulations covering conversions?
There are no specific regulations covering the conversion of
vans into passenger carrying vehicles. However, Regulation 100
of The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI
1986 No. 1078) will apply. This requires:
a motor vehicle, and all its parts and accessories;
the number of passengers carried, and the manner in which any
passengers are carried in or on a vehicle; and
the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of
a vehicle,
to be at all times such that no danger is caused, or is likely
to be caused, to any person in or on a vehicle or on a road.
This means that the conversion work must allow passengers to be
carried safely.
Additional seats should be fitted securely so that they are
likely to remain in place in the event of an accident. We
recommend that you seek the advice of a reputable garage or
vehicle converter.
Further to this, Section 40a of The Road Traffic Act 1988 (as
amended by Section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 1991) Part II,
Using a Vehicle in a Dangerous Condition, states that:
A person is guilty of an offence if he uses, or causes or
permits another to use, a motor vehicle or trailer on a road
when:
(a) the condition of the motor vehicle or trailer, or of its
accessories or equipment; or
(b) the purpose for which it is used; or
(c) the number of passengers carried by it, or the manner in
which they are carried; or
(d) the weight, position or distribution of its load, or the
manner in which it is secured;
is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a
danger of injury to any person.
Q. Do I need to fit seat belts in the rear?
There is no legal requirement for seat belts to be fitted in the
rear of a van. However, our advice is that the safest way for
passengers to travel is in a proper seat with seat belts fitted
and, if you intend to carry children aged 12 years or under, the
seatbelt wearing regulations require them to wear a suitable
child restraint at all times. When fitting seatbelts, they must
comply with the latest British or European standards and be
marked accordingly with either the ‘e’, ‘E’ or BS ‘Kitemark’.
The seat belt anchorage points should also be designed so that
they will be capable of withstanding the high forces of an
impact. We strongly recommend that seat belts and anchorages are
professionally installed by qualified persons (such as a
commercial garage or seatbelt specialist).
Q. Can side facing seats be fitted?
Our advice is that passengers are safest in a forward or
rearward facing seat equipped with a lap belt or, preferably, a
three-point belt.
Although side facing seats, with or without seat belts, are not
illegal, we would not advise that they are used. This is because
seat belts are not designed to be used with such seats. In the
event of an accident, seat belts on these side facing seats may
help to prevent the wearer being thrown around the vehicle or
from being ejected, but in a frontal crash they can increase
injury risk by subjecting vulnerable parts of the body to higher
loads than seat belts used on forward facing seats. You should
also bear in mind that child restraints cannot be fitted to side
facing seats. In order to fit the required child restraints, you
would need to have forward or rearward facing seats with full
three point seat belts.
Q. Can I carry children?
If you intend to carry children aged 12 years or under, the seat
belt wearing regulations require them to use a suitable child
restraint. You should bear in mind that child restraints cannot
be fitted to side facing seats. In order to fit the required
child restraints, you would need to have forward or rearward
facing seats with full three point seat belts.
Q. How many passengers can I carry?
Whilst there is no specific limit on the number of passengers
carried, vehicles designed or modified to carry more than 8
seated passengers excluding the driver will fall into the
‘minibus’ category and must comply with specific construction
requirements which are set out in Schedule 6 of The Road
Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986. It is also
important that you confirm the number of passengers and the
manner in which they will be carried with your insurance
company.
Q. Do I need to fit additional windows in my van?
No. There is no requirement for windows to be fitted in the rear
of a vehicle. However, if you choose to fit windows, these
should be made of non-glass safety glazing or safety glass.
Separate information is available on the requirements for
vehicle glazing.
Q. Is a goods vehicle still a goods vehicle, even if it has
seats in the back?
That depends on the particular circumstances. A goods vehicle is
'a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage
or haulage of goods or burden of any description'. A passenger
vehicle is 'a vehicle constructed solely for the carriage of
passengers and their effects'. If, by adding extra seats, all
the load space was now taken up by passengers and their effects,
a court might decide that the vehicle now fell under the
description of 'passenger vehicle' rather than 'goods vehicle'
and would need to meet the regulations that applied to passenger
vehicles. This could affect the requirements for items such as
seat belts and brakes, as well as licensing requirements.
Q. Can I carry goods and passengers in the rear?
Although there is nothing specific in the regulations to prevent
you doing this, we would strongly advise against carrying heavy
goods and passengers in the rear of a van unless the load is
secured to the bodywork to ensure it does not move about.
Alternatively, if you intend to carry passengers on a regular
basis you can create a separate load area by installing an
internal partition.
If a partition is fitted you should ensure it is strong enough
to stop the load from being thrown about inside the van.
Securing the load or fitting an internal partition offers some
protection to any passengers being carried, which is
particularly important in the event of an accident, as heavy,
unrestrained items being thrown about are likely to cause death
or serious injury.
If the vehicle has more than eight seats in addition to the
driver, it will be classed as a minibus or bus, whether or not
it also has room for the carriage of goods.
Q. Does the converted vehicle need to be checked?
There is no formal checking procedure for private conversions.
However, if you have installed new seat belts, it is advisable
that you submit your vehicle for a seat belt installation check
(a class IVa check) which can be carried out as part of the
annual MOT test.
Q. Do I need to inform anybody of the changes?
It may not be necessary to have your vehicle’s registration
details altered, but you should check with the DVLA (Tel 01792
721000) or your DVLA Local Office.
You should also inform your insurance company of the changes
made along with the number of passengers and the manner in which
they will be carried.
Further information
Consolidated versions of National regulations can be found in
Sweet and Maxwell’s Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and
Practice (Construction and Use) which should be available at
most main reference libraries.
Copies of National regulations can also be purchased from TSO
Orders/Post Cash Department, PO Box 29, Norwich, NR3 1GN;
telephone: 0870 600 5522; fax: 0870 600 5533; email:
customer.services@tso.co.uk; website:
HTML http://www.tso.co.uk/
The requirements for child car seat use can be viewed at:
HTML http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/
... e=Overview.
If you require any further information regarding the content of
this information sheet, please contact the DfT at the address
below:
International Vehicle Standards
Department for Transport
Zone 1/33
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR
Telephone: 020 7944 2091
Fax: 020 7944 2196
Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Note: The information in this document is a summary of the
Departments understanding of what the law requires. However,
ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the
courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are
therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if
necessary, seek independent advice.
#Post#: 66998--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: prof-pat-pending
Date: July 4, 2013, 4:49 pm
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^^^^^ - yep clear as mud :popcorn:
#Post#: 67005--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: genem
Date: July 4, 2013, 5:29 pm
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Simplified version of DfT letter for simple Borders Folk.
There is nothing to stop you carrying out a modification such as
this. However, you should ensure that any work you carry out
conforms to the requirements of the Road Vehicles (Construction
and Use) Regulations 1986. ( Nothing specific other than seats
need to be secure)
Also you must report all changes to DVLA. ( ie amend the seating
capacity on your V5)
You may also want to contact your insurance company and inform
them of the changes.
There are no specific regulations covering the conversion of
vans into passenger carrying vehicles. However, Regulation 100
of The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI
1986 No. 1078) will apply. This requires:.... no danger is
caused, or is likely to be caused, to any person in or on a
vehicle or on a road.
Additional seats should be fitted securely so that they are
likely to remain in place in the event of an accident.
Further to this, Section 40a of The Road Traffic Act 1988 (as
amended by Section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 1991) Part II,
Using a Vehicle in a Dangerous Condition, states that:A person
is guilty of an offence if .... the number of passengers carried
by it, or the manner in which they are carried..... involves a
danger of injury to any person.
(So its down to a Court to decide if you did something
Dangerous. I am unaware of any such prosecutions against seat in
the back conversions)
Q. Do I need to fit seat belts in the rear?
There is no legal requirement for seat belts to be fitted in the
rear of a van.
Q. Can side facing seats be fitted?
Although side facing seats, with or without seat belts, are not
illegal, we would not advise that they are used.
Q. Can I carry children?
If you intend to carry children aged 12 years or under, the seat
belt wearing regulations require them to use a suitable child
restraint.
Q. How many passengers can I carry?
Whilst there is no specific limit on the number of passengers
carried,
Q. Do I need to fit additional windows in my van?
No. There is no requirement for windows to be fitted in the rear
of a vehicle. .
Q. Does the converted vehicle need to be checked?
There is no formal checking procedure for private conversions.
Q. Do I need to inform anybody of the changes?
It may not be necessary to have your vehicle’s registration
details altered, but you should check with the DVLA (Tel 01792
721000) or your DVLA Local Office. ( Red herring. Just info
DVLA of the seating capacity change)
You should also inform your insurance company of the changes
made along with the number of passengers and the manner in which
they will be carried. ( Carefully.... many non specialist
Insurance companies will have a fit.)
Over to you to decide. My personal take on it is that my rear
bench seats are used very occasionally and rarely at all on a
public road so I'm OK with the limited risk. If the task in hand
was a daily driver with multiple passengers incl kids I'd
probably be looking for a LWB Stn Wagon or a disco
:blahblah
G.
#Post#: 67006--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: Time Bandit
Date: July 4, 2013, 5:33 pm
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--- Quote from: Albert Ross link ---
>
> Seats are over-rated, what's wrong with the floor?
>
--- End Quote ---
Indeed...
Or you could do what I did when I had my Mini with the back
stripped out...an empty metal gallon oil tin, it moulded itself
to the arse of the lad who got to sit on it, sitting on that and
hanging onto the roll cage what more did he want in the way of
comfort... ::) :smile1
#Post#: 67061--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: Dave
Date: July 5, 2013, 7:32 am
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Just do it and don't tell anyone. Ask yourself a few
questions...
When was the last time the police stopped me for any reason?
Do I drive like a knobhead and attract the attention of the
coppers and are my passengers likely to behave like mongs and be
likely to attract the rozzers' attention?
Can the filth see inside the motor and would any given pig know
whether or not your seats are up to scratch?
Insurance companies are all cunts and the money you hand over in
exchange for a piece of paper isn't worth the value of that
paper anyway, it's simply an excercise in having a your number
on the fascists' computer so they don't pull you for having no
insurance.
Disclaimer - The above advice is not neccessarily compliant with
the laws, bye-laws, rules and regulations pertaining to
operating a motor vehicle upon the Queen's Highway and the
derogatory names applied to public servants upholding the law do
not neccessarily reflect the poster's attitude to said officers
of the law or in any way imply that the poster is not a
thoroughly law-abiding citizen and are merely used for effect to
wind up certain elements of this forum and anyone else who may
offer an opinion.
#Post#: 67066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rear seats. Is this idea daft and / or legal?
DIR By: ProDave
Date: July 5, 2013, 8:08 am
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Last time someone went in the back, she just sat on a cushion on
the wheel arch.
I believe this is illegal if you are not in a "seat"
When I was a boy, my dad was a plumber. We regularly travelled
in the back of the van, one of us sat on the tool box, the other
sat on the propane gas bottle. I doubt that would be allowed
now.
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