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#Post#: 37554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: The Rhubarb Cowboy
Date: September 19, 2012, 6:29 am
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I suppose that the Stage 1 was a transition between the series
stationwagon and the 110 some bits were 110 such as permanent 4
wheel drive, and others such as the front brakes remained as
series 6 pot. From a wrongness standpoint it's not the same as
converting a mid sixties carawagon? But when it comes to ease of
servicing and setting up that decision is quite easy to make
here. You need a practical classic? Converted my Morris Minor
1300 to disks and never looked back 8) and spent a lot less time
fucking around with twin leading cylinders.
#Post#: 37561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: Doug_T
Date: September 19, 2012, 8:54 am
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--- Quote from: johnpirate link ---
>
> Only a thought but if this comes in wont it cause all sorts
of problems for brake mods.
HTML http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM%3A2012%3A0380%2851%29%3AFIN%3AEN%3APDF
>
--- End Quote ---
If it results in:
a) The purveyors of such kits requiring to have TUV (or
equivalent) approval, or
b) The fitment of such a kit to be independently inspected by
the authorites and then given the equivalent of above,
Then that can only be a good thing. Nobody seems to quibble too
much about your insurance companies requiring "engineers
reports", why should that be any different?
--- Quote from: FenTiger link ---
>
> As for wheels, I have a choice of 130 or Wolf rims to fit. So
should be covered for any eventuality.
>
--- End Quote ---
You may find you need longer studs if the Zeus disc centre is
thicker than the original brake drum centre.
I think though Toby, you've answered your own question with your
comment about the precious cargo. If you are worried about your
brake linings coming off when performing an emergency stop at
motorway speeds, then even the 1100 Euros is cheap at the price.
:) Either one you get then pictures would I'm sure be
appreciated by many on here ;-)
#Post#: 37618--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: Sunny Jim
Date: September 19, 2012, 3:44 pm
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--- Quote ---
> As for machining my existing drums, they are pretty worn
already, so not really an option.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have had drums re-ground in the past and found it was not
worth it - your are only alowed a tiny oversize in diameter. I
found that the shoes took an age to bed in and fitting new drums
was the better option. That said, I got some genuine Land Rover
boxed drums in 1984 and of the three they had one had porosity
in it so was no good and after fitting the other two to the
front, found they were out of round (the brake pedal bounced up
and down)! I then fitted them to the back where they still
reside today. I went front disc 12 years ago and never looked
back. A bigger servo would be useful, but with good linings (I
am on Delphi at the moment) I find they continue to dig in as
you press harder, especially from speed. I have the early
Santana set up so it is straight from their leaf sprung models
so fits with the original wheels. The pedal box is an early 90
one which is apparently the same as a Series 3. I have the part
numbers written down somewhere.
Sunny Jim
#Post#: 37621--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: fuckwit
Date: September 19, 2012, 4:17 pm
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I've done htis one, and it was a long road. SunnyJim , that was
the Merc kit right? Mk1 Heystee. I have Mk2 - which is Fiat.
One thing to note on discs. The master cylinder has difffernt
'hold' characteristics for disc over drums. Paul Heystee told me
that drums neeed a body of fluid, that will cause pad drag when
the same MC is run on discs. I had this problem when I tried
putting 4 x discs (the Santana Fiat Ducato Talbot van kit) on my
109, as recommended, back in the day, by Chris Perfect . Apart
from problems, over braking at the rear, the split 110 MC that
fed the rear held the pads on and caused premature wear. So, to
consider discs, think of it as a whole system. You cannot
short-cahnge it, at least not with the Snatana kit.
For my trouble I have a spare Santana kit that got taken back
off the rear, now only good for parts.
You will need to rid yourself of any series MC, because it will
have hte wrong bias and the wrong 'hold-on' drum characteristics
for the disc caliper. I suspect this advice holds no matter
which calipers you use. I strongly suggest a S3/90/110 pedal box
and boingy servo or as i have, the Heystee joobby. Any shortcut,
I treid tehm all, and you'll not have it any better, or more
liekly worse than stock. You have to have the proepr MC or
you'll wanker it up, I did for bit, until I got it sorted.
Also you need the early 90 MC, not the early 110 MC as I did,
and the big servo to shove it.
I did mine in stages, and it was not until I had the whole
shebang fitted it worked as it should. Now it stops, and stays
like it. It may be gay, but for an every day driver, it has to
be done.
#Post#: 37637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: gilbo
Date: September 19, 2012, 5:16 pm
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Like Fuckwit - been there, done that.
Best solution I found is the 90 pedal box with the larger
diameter servo (NRC 4772 - often referred to as the Type 80)
along with the 90 master cylinder (assuming it is a SWB)
NRC9529. Watch out as the master cylinder uses metric threads
(different sizes too for the front feed and back). Best
combination for me with TI (supplied at the time by RM) discs up
front and 10" standard drums on rear. Normal S3 servo just
doesn't have the boost.
Oh and yes the pedal box and type 80 will fit but you do need to
butcher the top of the wing somewhat and a deluxe bonnet covers
it better than my razor edge...but it fits and more importantly
it bloody well works
HTH
Dave
#Post#: 37646--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: FenTiger
Date: September 20, 2012, 2:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Doug_T link ---
>
> You may find you need longer studs if the Zeus disc centre is
thicker than the original brake drum centre.
>
> I think though Toby, you've answered your own question with
your comment about the precious cargo. If you are worried about
your brake linings coming off when performing an emergency stop
at motorway speeds, then even the 1100 Euros is cheap at the
price. :) Either one you get then pictures would I'm sure be
appreciated by many on here ;-)
>
--- End Quote ---
The Zeus kit, thoughtfully, comes with the longer studs already.
;D
The brake master / Servo issue is a slight concern, and one not
often mentioned, so thanks all for sharing your experiences. I
think this is fast becoming a useful reference thread for anyone
else considering this upgrade.
I would just like to await Stig's feedback, once he has got back
from France, as I know that he has recently fitted the Zeus Kit
and has racked up plenty of miles on it since.
--- Quote from: gilbo link ---
>
> Like Fuckwit - been there, done that.
> Best solution I found is the 90 pedal box with the larger
diameter servo (NRC 4772 - often referred to as the Type 80)
along with the 90 master cylinder (assuming it is a SWB)
NRC9529. Watch out as the master cylinder uses metric threads
(different sizes too for the front feed and back). Best
combination for me with TI (supplied at the time by RM) discs up
front and 10" standard drums on rear. Normal S3 servo just
doesn't have the boost.
> Oh and yes the pedal box and type 80 will fit but you do need
to butcher the top of the wing somewhat and a deluxe bonnet
covers it better than my razor edge...but it fits and more
importantly it bloody well works
> HTH
> Dave
>
--- End Quote ---
The Stagey already has the same master cylinder as the early 110
(NRC8690), so should be well suited to disk brake front end. The
only thing I may need to consider is swapping out is the servo
(which is pretty large already). I dont really want to go
hacking the wings about, so will take advice under consideration
and see how we go.
Thanks agan all.
TF
#Post#: 37651--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: fuckwit
Date: September 20, 2012, 6:00 am
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It seems you're getting the picture here. Most I've tried to
tell thsi too, carry on talking bollocks. As Gilbo says, you
need the whole shebang. Using the NRC8690 was a non-starter at
least with the Ducato/PS10 calipers up front and the stck drums
at the rear, it worked but the bias was wrong. so what with
fitting a faulty NRC8690 at first, a working NRC8690 second, by
the tiem I had it done , if you include the stock S3 MC, I'd
put four MCs on before it was truly 'right'. I spent enought
time with wankered brakes to know. I could go on foerever, with
this story, I was plagued with vaccumm leaks too, manifold and
servo, and when i treid all four corners with discs, I even had
a Wilwood proportioning valve on a one point. Didn't work.
This is for a stagey right? You need NRC9529G irrepective of
your 109ness credentials, and should you have the mis-fortune to
suffer from WBDS. (Wheelbase Deficiit Syndrome) and lack
nutrients in the inches dept, you have my pity, but you still
need a NRC9529G.
And servo, yes you can using a debender one, but the Heystee job
requires no hacking. See my earlier pic, no butchery required.
Hack it if you must, but the Heysttee one is the bollox.
And the icing on the cake, my other wagon, is a V*lva, and it
has a U28 servo vacumm pump, and vacuum switch. I pinched the
idea from our Swedish cousins, a nice addiotion, because my hot
cam, does not produce too much vacuum, and the engine is a bit
shot, I was losing vacuum after 2-3 prods, so lost servo. If you
run deseasel, you might want one too. I've to fit the debender
gravity valve next.
Nope you can't have my spare Heystee Mk2 PS10/ Ducato kit, have
you seen the price of repalcemetn PS10, discs & calipers? FFS
Feck! For those that want to know, (NoelC??? DougT) Ducato one
fits but has one pot at a different diams, and twin brake lines.
One half of seal kit is the same, so buy two Ducato recon kits
pistons, to sort recon your Santana kit calipers. I notice NoelC
was having issues. Also NoelC & DougT watch pad size, the
caliper I have is a gnats cock too small (0.5mm) for the pads,
you don't see it and it causes seizing pots. Grind pads to fit.
I think it is a machining issue with PS10 calipers. I even have
soem spare recon Ducato clipers, I even would up with having
scored chaep on the 'bay, in my fight to get it right, so thsi
comes from a battle-scared vet.
Doing discs, and doing discs right, ain't the same thing.
BTW:
WBDS: If you do suffer from 109-21, some call it 87+1 syndrome,
I beleive there is a charity and thriving support group for
this. You can get help.
#Post#: 37653--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: FenTiger
Date: September 20, 2012, 6:19 am
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As an owner of 80", 88" and 109", I haven't got a bloody clue
what you are talking about! Being insecure about your length,
is not a problem I suffer from....
#Post#: 37654--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: fuckwit
Date: September 20, 2012, 6:32 am
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"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." ;)
You can get help you know. Now about these discs....
#Post#: 37682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Purile and vacuous brakes - Worth it ?
DIR By: Sunny Jim
Date: September 20, 2012, 12:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> One thing to note on discs. The master cylinder has difffernt
'hold' characteristics for disc over drums
--- End Quote ---
I have read this, but I have disc/drum with a standard single
circuit master cylinder. I have got used to the fact that you
need to press harder than in my modern Astra. When testing the
brakes, the pads release immediately that the pedal is released.
What I have found is that the inner pad wears quicker as under
light braking, the inner pad rubs before the caliper moves and
engages the outer pad. A set of pads did about 30 000 miles of
mostly short journeys with a lot of braking!
I do not intend to change the configuration at the moment,
although I have got a larger servo in the cellar somewhere, but
would worry about the rear brakes locking up.
Sunny Jim
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