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#Post#: 2145--------------------------------------------------
No. 6 translations
By: Ahiku Date: December 17, 2014, 12:15 pm
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Hello… ^^
I want to start a new thread. If they’re publishing No. 6 in
your country please let us know how they handle for example
proper names. I think this could be a very interesting topic.
Ok, I can tell you something about the German version.
Volume 1
The person names are like in the original. (Nezumi, Shion,
Karan, Safu etc.) I’m really glad that they didn’t use
„Ratte“(rat) for Nezumi.
---
Westblock, Chronos, Lost Town and Violence Chip are still
English terms.
---
Moondrop is literally translated. (Mondtropfen) It bugged me a
bit, but [member=5]listenforthelove[/member] said that it’s
Tsuki no Shizuku in the Japanese version. So it’s very accurate
to translate it like that.
---
The term for Correctional Facility could be better. They use
“Besserungsanstalt” (reformatory) instead of
“Justizvollzugsanstalt”. But I guess it’s still okay.
---
Ok, the next one is Security Bureau. They use “Ordnungsamt” in
the German version, which is pretty funny in my opinion, because
it is something like a regulatory agency. They normally monitor
diners and fries stands to make sure they are hygienic… and they
make sure that you’ve an allowance when you want to run a little
stall during a weekly market. I mean when you’ve a diner or
something or you have problems with the license of your car it
might be a scary instance, but in No. 6 the Bureau of Safety is
more like a police and regulatory agency in one. I don’t know
why they didn’t translate it just literally, something like.
“Sicherheitsbüro”, Bureau of Safety and Health, (Sicherheits-
und Gesundheitsbüro). I mean it’s very inviting to translate it
literally. So I don’t really get it. ^^°
---
Forest Park is “Stadtpark” in the German translation. That’s
rather something like a city park. I guess “Waldpark” would
probably have been a better choice. (Forest = Wald)
---
Safu’s first love declaration when she talks to Shion via ID
card also bugged me a bit, but I also learned that it is way
more accurate than in the English version.
[member=5]listenforthelove[/member] translated it for us:
[quote]
- What did Safu tell Shion back in volume 1 - daisuki, ai
****eru?
Safu’s words are:
好きよ、紫苑.
誰よりあなたのこ
とが好き
suki yo, shion - dare yori anata no koto ga suki
‘I love you, Shion - more than anyone else, I love you’
So actually just ‘suki’! Which is more ‘like’ than love, though
‘suki na hito’ is ‘the one I love’, so it does imply love and
not just fondness. But you also use suki/daisuki to say you
really like a thing, not just a person. So translating as ‘love’
might actually be a bit strong in this case, especially since
she does say ai ****eta (‘I loved you’) later on in volume
8.[/quote]
So in the beginning, she uses “like” instead of “love” and used
the stronger form later. In the German version, she’s also
saying: “Ich mag dich, Shion.” (I like you, Shion.) I thought it
was wrong, because they used: “I love you” in the English
version.
Volume 2
Cleaner is “Wegräumer”. Well, I guess that’s okay. Better than
“Putzmann” / “Reiniger” or something. But “Wegräumer” is a
neologism. It’s something like “put away guy/woman”.
---
Inukashi is still Inukashi. I’m not really sure how they’re
going to handle the matter concerning Inukashi’s gender. There’s
just one scene in volume 2 where it is necessary and they found
a nice solution.
Nezumi says: “Das ist der Bewohner dieses Gebäudes. Seinen
wirklichen Namen kenne ich nicht. Wir nennen ihn Inukashi.“
“This is the inhabitant (der Bewohner) of this building. I don’t
know “his” (seinen) real name. We call “him” (ihn) Inukashi.”
There are two possibilities. The first one is that they use the
male form for Inukashi (his, him). The other possibility is,
that “seinen” and “ihn” refers to the word “der Bewohner”. It’s
a male noun. But it’s not clear. It could be both. ^^° I think
they go for a male version in the beginning and tried to leave
out everything that could reveal Inukashi’s gender.
It’s fact that we also have a female version for these
sencentes: “Das ist die Bewohnerin dieses Gebäudes. Ihren
wirklichen Namen kenne ich nicht. Wie nennen sie Inukashi.”
They didn’t use it, so they go for “he and him” or they tried to
be gender-neutral and made it inconclusive… But reading it, you
rather think Inukashi is a boy.
---
Rikiga is still Rikiga. Shion addresses him formally with “Sie”
and “Herr Rikiga” (Mr. Rikiga). He’s pretty polite… but when
Nezumi is insulted by Rikiga and Shion freaks out and yells at
him, he’s using “du” instead of “Sie” and is on first name terms
with him, pretty informally. Nezumi is pretty rude to Rikiga.
XD He’s always calling him “du” and his typical “old man” (alter
Mann, alter Knacker) is just “Alter”. It’s pretty common term
among teenagers… (Something like: “Hey dude!”), but it’s pretty
rude when you’re a teen and you’re calling a middle-aged man
like that. ^^° In my opinion it’s even more rude than “alter
Mann” (old man)…
---
Ok, last but not least Eve… (;_;) They made “Yves” out of it. I
mean… yes イヴ could supposedly also be „Yves”… And
I guess they thought: “Uh, he’s a guy, why should he call
himself Eve.”
Really, I contacted the publisher and told him that they should
use “Eve”… I don’t think it’s still possible to change it, but
it really bugged me. XD Just why…? This is a ****ing boy’s name.
There’s a reason why Nezumi’s stage name is a female name.
Ahhhrgh! Well, even if they can’t change it… I tried to improve
it. X’D
#Post#: 2148--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: lawlya Date: December 17, 2014, 1:36 pm
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I just thought of "Yves Rocher" and could barely hold back my
laughter ... until I realized how horrible that name really is
...
#Post#: 2152--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: Ahiku Date: December 17, 2014, 2:27 pm
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[quote]I just thought of "Yves Rocher" and could barely hold
back my laughter ... until I realized how horrible that name
really is ...[/quote]
Ok, this made me laugh... but also just for a moment. XD I
thought my eyes are gonna plop out.
If I remember it correctly, [member=1]Yuneyn[/member] said that
they also named him Yves in the French version. But the French
version is pretty awful, with Nezumi as "le rat" and Shion is
"aster" or something like that. (x_X)
Really... Why! Lawlya, why don't you also send an e-mail to
Egmont
HTML http://www.manganet.de/schreib-uns/.
When a lot of people tell
them that his stage name is "Eve" and not Yves... maybe they'll
change it. X'D Maybe... (I mean they want critical reviews...
X'D)
#Post#: 2153--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: listenforthelove Date: December 17, 2014, 2:49 pm
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Ah, this is super interesting! A Dutch translation would
probably never happen ([s]unless I do it I guess[/s]), so I
don't have a lot to contribute here, but it's super interesting
to read these! Thank you, @Ahiku~
'Stadtpark' for Forest Park is really a strange choice... Hm.
Fairly sure it's literally 'Forest Park' in Japanese. I'll need
to look up Security Bureau to tell you what that is in Japanese
exactly, but I can do that this weekend. If memory serves, it
wasn't as straightforward with only one possible interpretation,
though...
Makes sense they kept Inukashi as Inukashi if they also kept
Nezumi, but it's interesting they are sort of going with
gendered pronouns anyway. I paid attention to it in English, and
they kept clear of any pronouns until the very last pages of
volume 9, so I can't help but wonder if the German version
couldn't have rephrased it a little to avoid the pronouns
altogether.
Addressing Rikiga like that sounds accurate, haha. Guess German
(and Dutch too, we also have two forms of politeness for second
person) lends itself pretty well for some Japanese politeness
levels.
Eve to Yves is... eh, wow. I'll freely admit it never dawned on
me as I read the novels that Eve was used as the female name (I
sincerely thought it was short for 'evening' because with mice
being nocturnal and all...), but why would they go with 'Yves'
over 'Eve'? Yves is a French name, right? There's not a lot of
French to be spotted in No. 6 aside from the cravats, all loan
words for new terms are English (Lost Town, violence chip
etc)... イヴ is indeed used for Yves in Japanese,
but still. Especially considering that the manga does clearly
show Eve is in female attire... and Yves is a male name. Huh. I
mean, not to push everyone into gender boxes, but still. They
have the entire manga to work from, it's not like they don't
know what will be shown later on XD; (and that one bonus comic
in volume 3 (? I think?) won't work in German, then, with Shion
asking 'Eve' to read from the Bible...)
To how many languages has No. 6 now been translated, anyway? I
know the manga also got translated to Polish recently, and the
novels got partially translated into French, I think - how many
other languages, does anyone know?
#Post#: 2162--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: Ahiku Date: December 17, 2014, 4:41 pm
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[quote]Makes sense they kept Inukashi as Inukashi if they also
kept Nezumi, but it's interesting they are sort of going with
gendered pronouns anyway. I paid attention to it in English, and
they kept clear of any pronouns until the very last pages of
volume 9, so I can't help but wonder if the German version
couldn't have rephrased it a little to avoid the pronouns
altogether.[/quote]
Hm. It's really, really difficult. Because you always need a
female or male gender to define certain things. So you have to
change a lot when you want to make it genderless. ^^°
If you want to keep it genderless, you always have to use the
name, but that's pretty weird. XD
"Das ist Inukashi. Inukashi gehört das Gebäude. Ich kenne
Inukashis richtigen Namen nicht."
This is Inukashi. This building belongs to Inukashi. I don't
know Inukashi's real name.
You just need personal pronouns. If you don't wanna reveal the
gender, the only possibility is to find some words which could
paraphrase it, but that's probably just possible when you write
a story, but it's hard to leave it out in a dialogue, especially
when two people talk about a certain person.
Hm...the only possibility would be to use gender-neutral words,
something like child. Child is neutral in German. (Das Kind) But
if you refer to a neutral word, you also have to use "sein",
"seinem", "ihm" which is normally for the male gender, but it's
also for the neutral gender... ^^° "Ihm" and "sein" refers to
"das Kind" (the child). Jesus, German is ****ing difficult. X'D
"Das Kind wird Inukashi genannt. Ihm gehört das Hotel. Ich kenne
seinen wirklichen Namen nicht."
(This child is called Inukashi. The hotel belongs to it. I don't
know its real name.)
Same thing would work with "Teenager". It's a male word, but
there's no female form for it, so the teenager could be a boy or
a girl. ^^° But you'd also use "his"/"he" in German...
It's nearly impossible to leave personal pronouns out when you
don't find words to paraphrase it, so that the personal pronouns
refer to a certain word and not to the person, or you always
have to use the person's name. ^^°
I guess it's easier for them when they just use "he" instead of
trying not to reveal Inukashi's gender.
[quote]Huh. I mean, not to push everyone into gender boxes, but
still. They have the entire manga to work from, it's not like
they don't know what will be shown later on XD; (and that one
bonus comic in volume 3 (? I think?) won't work in German, then,
with Shion asking 'Eve' to read from the Bible...[/quote]
Ah right, I totally forgot the little bonus comic. o_o Meh, I
really don't get it. But I also argued with volume 3 (I told
them I own them in English...) and said that Nezumi is dressed
like a girl in Volume 3. There's this picture:
HTML http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8949/03-009.0/compressed/p009_021.jpg<br
/>and tried to explain that his voice can sound like a woman's..
.
Yves... really, I just wanna vomit. X'D
#Post#: 2164--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: listenforthelove Date: December 17, 2014, 5:30 pm
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@Ahiku: Hm, but doesn't English have similar problems with
pronouns? Though I guess English is usually a more flexible
language... Still, the English translation did not use 'they'
for Inukashi (except for one instance in Kino's notes in the
back of the volume), and as said steered clear from using
pronouns until the very end. It is possible at least, but it
requires some creativity, and maybe they wanted to stick to the
source as closely as possible. (I can only speak for English and
Dutch though since those are the languages I write in, but Dutch
and German are rather similar linguistically I guess...)
Hm, can't remember how the English translation solved that
particular instance. Maybe that was indeed because English
allows for more flexibility.
'Kind' would have actually been a sort of good solution, as
Inukashi is indeed quite young from what we know and Nezumi is
not exactly the most polite guy around when it comes to Inukashi
XD;
Yves, though. Why. Whyyyyy. Who looks at Yves and goes 'yes that
is definitely a name that fits right into this story'.
#Post#: 2168--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: Ahiku Date: December 17, 2014, 6:33 pm
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[member=5]listenforthelove[/member]
Yeah, English is more flexible. Of course you have some points
where you definitely need some personal pronouns, but you have
way more possibilities from the beginning, because nouns are
genderless. That’s a huge advantage.
Words like “inhabitant”, “lender”, “singer”, “owner” etc. are
genderless. (They have all male and female versions in German...
Bewohner/Bewohnerin, Verleiher/Verleiherin, Sänger/Sängerin,
Besitzer/Besitzerin...)
And if you’re able to play with words it should be possible to
express whatever you like without using personal pronouns. But
you have more possibilities when you can use nouns, at least.
Well, let’s check out the English translation.
“Let me introduce the owner. Real name unknown. So everyone
settled on dogkeeper.”
Loosley translated: „Lass mich dir den Besitzer vorstellen.
Richtiger Name (ist) unbekannt. Daher haben sich alle auf
Inukashi festgelegt.“
Ok, not that bad. The second and the third sentence would be
fine, even though the second one is a bit weird, because it’s
more like a sentence fragment. Normally people would rather say:
Ihr/Sein richtiger Name (ist) unbekannt. (His/Her real name is
unknown.)
And Nezumi is normally very eloquent, so he shouldn’t use
sentence fragments and tell Shion that his linguistic ability is
worse than a Chimpanzee’s. ^^°
But the big problem is the first sentence, because “den
Besitzer”/”der Besitzer” is the male form of owner… He could
say: “Lass mich dir den Besitzer (male)/die Besitzerin (female)
vorstellen.“
I mean, I also sometimes use the male form when I speak about
myself. ^^° Something like. “Hey, I’m the owner of a new
laptop.” (“Hey, ich bin der Besitzer eines neuen Laptops!” even
though the grammatically correct form would be: “Hey, ich bin
die Besitzerin eines neuen Laptops.”)
And yet…the sentence still implies that Inukashi is a guy, or
that Nezumi is pretty rude because he doesn’t use the female
form when he’s talking about her.
(I mean he IS rude when it comes to Inukashi… XD But on the
other side you witnessed just a couple of pages ago that he’s
quite the charmer when he kisses that prostitute. Hmmm…but he’s
also teasing Inukashi. I’m not sure… does he know Inukashi is
probably a girl? He doesn’t seem to care at all when it comes to
them.)
Okay, it just implies that Inukashi is a guy, because the reader
doesn’t know that much about Nezumi, it’s just the second
volume. So it’s too early to analyze Nezumi’s behavior
concerning Inukashi. X’D
Ah, but I think they could have used something like: “Inukashi
gehört das Hotel. Richtiger Name (ist) unbekannt. Alle haben
sich daher auf diesen Namen festgelegt.” (Inukashi owns the
hotel. Real name unknown. So everyone settled on this name.)
The second sentence is still not very nice, and it’s probably
not very close to the original, but well… it’s still better than
using words which imply a male gender. XD It’s so complicated.
#Post#: 2170--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: Vox Date: December 17, 2014, 9:43 pm
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this is all very interesting but i think i'll be over here
crying about "yves"
(sorry, i'm a bit sick and loopy, i hope this reply doesn't seem
flippant. i really did read the whole thing. i just kinda got
stuck on the yves thing.)
#Post#: 2171--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: lawlya Date: December 18, 2014, 4:09 am
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@Ahiku: Gonna do this asap. Egmont asked for a little analyze
why it's "Eve" and why that's important? Okay, they can have
that xD
As for Inukashi's 'gendered' words ... I think the problem
really is that German just doesn't have any genderless pronouns.
They just don't exist (and frankly, Wikipedia says that English
was like that in the past too until someone changed the
grammatical structure of it; and nearly all languages in Europe
have problems similar to those in German ...)
The convention is that the male pronouns are also considered
genderless. It's actually the same in English with the
difference that the English language has other pronouns you
could use (like the 'singular they'). There's actually a really
nice Wikipedia article about this.
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_and_gender-neutral_pronouns
But "Yves" is horrible ... gonna change that and if it's the
last thing I do xD
#Post#: 2174--------------------------------------------------
Re: No. 6 translations
By: Ahiku Date: December 18, 2014, 7:50 am
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[quote]sorry, i'm a bit sick and loopy, i hope this reply
doesn't seem flippant. i really did read the whole thing. i just
kinda got stuck on the yves thing.)[/quote]
Ah, don't worry. It's maybe a not so interesting conversation
for you guys... o.o° But I remembered that we had some
interested parties... I'm probably going to post a part of it on
my private blog, but I als wanted to share it here. ^^
Ah, I really wonder if we have No. 6 in any other languages
apart from English, French, Polish and German. (And of course
Japanese...)
The French one is the worst, so far. The official English one is
"okay" in my opinion... Would have been better with their
original names, though...
The German one is really not bad. They really try hard. But Yves
is just a no go. X'D Dame! Dame yo! >,<
[quote]But "Yves" is horrible ... gonna change that and if it's
the last thing I do xD[/quote]
Oh yes! Let's go to animexx, we have to start a petition. XD I
hope our e-mails will help.
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