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#Post#: 241--------------------------------------------------
3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: xxHaZ
Date: July 15, 2014, 8:42 pm
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Going to take Janda's ranges and tweak them to include more
Internet-y hands (instead of the rando sc's). This will provide
a temporary "template" for the following ranges:
3b
call 3b
4b
#Post#: 243--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: A
Date: July 15, 2014, 8:58 pm
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I'm starting to think that 4-betting into polarized ranges
doesn't even make sense, in position at least. However, I think
if you don't start 4-betting, then they actually have a
profitable 3-bet with any two cards since they'll often have a
profitable c-bet on the flop without any risk of having to fold
pre-flop.
Also:
Going to take Janda's ranges and tweak them to include more
Internet-y hands (instead of the rando sc's). This will provide
a temporary "template" for the following ranges:
3b
call 3b
4b
If you're going to do a polarized 3-betting range, you need to
know which hands are actually more profitable to call than to
raise. I think you'd be surprised at how many hands should
actually be profitable to call from the blinds, btw. I don't
know, I'm going with no calling range pre-flop except from the
Big Blind. I think you'd be surprised at how little the
stack-off ranges change when you 3-bet and call a 4-bet versus
when you cold-call preflop. You actually end up calling down
with mostly the same range, but you make a much larger portion
of Villain's opening range lose EV pre-flop compared to if you
had cold-called.
Like...his QQ might go slightly up in EV to open, but half of
his opening range just went from .3BBs to zero.
#Post#: 244--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: xxHaZ
Date: July 16, 2014, 2:20 pm
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Template:
3 bets:
vs UTG 3b IP: AA-KK, AKs, AJo, KQo, A5s-A4s (3.6%)
vs UTG 3b SB & BB: AA-KK, AKs, AKo*, 44-33, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s,
65s (3.8%)
vs MP 3b IP: AA-QQ, AKs, AKo*, AJo, KQo, A5s-A4s (4.7%)
vs MP 3b SB: AA-QQ, AKs-AQs, AKo, 66-44, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s,
76s (5.7%)
vs MP 3b BB: AA-QQ, AKs-AQs, AKo, QTs, J9s, T8s, 98s-97s, 87s,
76s, 65s, 54s (5.6%)
vs CO 3b IP: AA*-JJ, AKs, AKo, ATo, KJo, QJo, A7s-A2s (7.2%)
vs CO 3b SB: AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, AKo-AQo, 55-44, KTs, QTs, JTs-J9s,
T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s (8.9%)
vs CO 3b BB: AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, AKo-AQo, 44-22, A5s-A4s, K9s, Q9s,
T8s, 97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s (9.5%)
vs BU 3b SB: AA-TT, AKs-ATs, AKo-ATo, KQs-KJs, KQo-KJo, 55-33,
A7s-A2s, K8s-K4s, Q9s-Q8s, J9s-J8s, T8s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s,
76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s (18.1%)
vs BU 3b BB: AA-TT, AKs-A9s, AKo-ATo, KQs-KJs, KQo-KJo, 22,
K4s-K2s, Q6s-Q2s, J7s-J6s, T7s, 98s-96s, 87s-85s, 76s-75s,
65s-64s, 54s-53s, 43s (17.5%)
call 3b/4b:
UTG call vs IP 3b: KK-TT, AKo, AKs-AQs, KQs
UTG 4b vs IP 3b: AA, AQo
UTG call vs OOP 3b: KK-TT, AKo, AKs-ATs, KQs, JTs
UTG 4b vs OOP 3b: AA, AQo
MP call vs IP 3b: QQ-TT, AKo-AQo, AKs-AQs, KQs
MP 4b vs IP 3b: AA-KK, AKs, AJs-ATs, AJo
MP call vs OOP 3b: QQ-TT, AKs-AJs, AKo-AQo, KQs, JTs
MP 4b vs OOP 3b: AA-KK, A5s-A2s
CO call vs IP 3b: AA, JJ-99, AQs-AJs, AQo, KQs-KJs, KQo, QJs
CO 4b vs IP 3b: KK-QQ, AKs, AKo, ATs-A9s, AJo-ATo, KTs
CO call vs OOP 3b: JJ-99, AQs-ATs, AQo-AJo, KQs-KTs, KQo,
QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s
CO 4b vs OOP 3b: AA-QQ, AKs, AKo, A8s-A7s, A5s-A2s, K9s, K7s-K5s
BU call vs 3b: AA, TT-77, AQs-A7s, A5s, AQo-ATo, KQs-K9s, KQo-
KTo, QJs-Q9s, QJo, JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s, 76s, 65s
BU 4b vs 3b: KK-JJ, AKs, AKo, A6s, A4s-A2s, K8s-K4s, Q8s-Q7s
SB call vs BB 3b: AA, TT-77, AQs-A9s, AQo-ATo, KQs-KTs, KQo-KJo,
QJs-QTs, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s
SB 4b vs BB 3b: KK-JJ, AKs, AKo, A8s-A7s, A5s-A4s, K9s, K7s-K6s,
Q9s
(compare final defend %'s with Janda's ranges and keep working
on these).
#Post#: 245--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: A
Date: July 16, 2014, 3:22 pm
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These ranges are like the opposite of what I've been doing
lately. I've been basically playing raise or fold pre-flop from
every position but the Big Blind. For example, my "vs UTG" range
looks like:
MP 3Bet: AA-99, AKs-ATs, AKo-AQo, KQs
MP Call: Nothing
CO 3Bet: AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo-AJo, KQs-KJs, KQo
CO Call: Nothing
Etc.
The basic idea is that yes, when they have QQ they can (MAYBE)
4-bet for value pre-flop, though they don't even do that well if
they get called. However, every hand in their opening range
that they are folding to a 3-bet becomes neutral EV to open.
That's quite good, because it means that a very large portion
loses EV relative to getting called with the hands that you are
3-betting. When you have pocket 8's and they fold ATo, that's a
pretty big victory. Go back and read the discussion I had with
Sauce. He tried to hint at all of this without giving away.
It's a tough style to play, though, because you have to know
your ranges very well or else you end up stacking off lighter
(but in reality, you shouldn't actually be stacking off lighter
than if you called pre-flop instead of 3-bet).
Example: Against the CO, I'm 3-betting the following range and
folding everything else:
AA-66,AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,AKs-A4s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs
It's not that you don't make money by calling hands like AQo and
KQo in that situation, but it's that I'm becoming very convinced
it's much more profitable to 3-bet them. I almost view calling
pre-flop as an exploit now, to be done against tight players.
From the BB (and likely from the SB), you should have a calling
range.
#Post#: 246--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: A
Date: July 16, 2014, 3:25 pm
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SB 4b vs BB 3b: KK-JJ, AKs, AKo, A8s-A4s, K9s-K5s
See, the problem with a range like this is that you have a
whopping 9 combinations of made hands on Qxx. I guess that's
okay, though. I've been starting to experiment with calling my
whole (continuing range) against a 3-bet and just playing as the
pfr. If it's a good board for me, then I just bet etc.
#Post#: 247--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: xxHaZ
Date: July 16, 2014, 4:17 pm
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Yeah, my approach for the 4b ranges is too simplistic at the
moment (and this is what I want to get a better feel for)... I
mostly picked the cuspy-hands too weak to call a 3b I imagined
and have seen Internet/RIO coaches use as 4b's and bulked the
highest combos together.
Instead of simply using the highest cards slightly outside of a
call 3b range I think I should aim for a little more coverage
like you're suggesting (based on my value range). I'll get
through the Internet vid over the next couple days and have a
better idea on how to edit these.
For instance, instead of: SB 4b vs BB 3b: KK-JJ, AKs, AKo,
A8s-A4s, K9s-K5s
Maybe KK-JJ, AKs, AKo, A8s-A4s, K9s-K7s, Q9s-Q8s is better (like
you're suggesting).
When choosing from our available hands to 4b with it doesn't
make sense to me to fold a hand like Q9s then use Q7s instead.
Some of Janda's ranges originally did this for wider board
coverage.
Your strategy is interesting - personally I'm just taking things
one step at a time (I want to figure out what the winning regs
are doing currently then take it from there).
#Post#: 248--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: A
Date: July 16, 2014, 5:34 pm
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(I want to figure out what the winning regs are doing currently
then take it from there).
Haha, well they don't get more winning than Sauce and this is
exactly what he's doing. Check out the discussion I had with
him. I think you can win playing lots of ways, though. Just
something I've been experimenting with.
#Post#: 250--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: A
Date: July 16, 2014, 9:11 pm
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By the way, if you want to has out some ranges in real-time let
me know. Could do a TeamViewer type of thing or something.
There are some spots that I'm still not sure about, like calling
from the Big Blind vs. various positions.
#Post#: 254--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: xxHaZ
Date: July 17, 2014, 1:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Some questions/notes from the first half of the Internet defend
against 3b's vid:
UTG Janda uses a 1V:2B ratio for 4 bets whereas Internet uses
closer to 1V:1.25B ... I believe this is because UTG Janda is
only 4 betting AA for value whereas Internet is using QQ+. From
each other position Janda uses closer to 1V:1.25B.
"We bluff the best hands that would otherwise fold"
Hands to 4b bluff with:
UTG: AQo, AJs, ATs, KJs (maybe A9s or A5s)
Determining whether A9s is better than A5s:
Here is close to Internet's 3b range from CO vs UTG:
AA-KK,AJo,KQo,A9s with KQo @ 50% and AJo @ 35%
Tough to estimate the normal 4b size against 9bb, but let's just
say 20bb:
(13.5)(X) - 17(1-X) = 0
X = .56, so the 3 bettor defends at least 1 - .56 = .44
This is strictly AA-KK. (26.2*.44) = 12 combos rounded up. When
we hold Ax we block half of CO's AA - how does this effect his
defending frequencies? When we remove some of his defending
range it's harder for him to defend at optimal. If AA-KK is the
optimal defending range (12 combos), then he defends 25% less
when we block Ax. My best answer is A9s is essentially the same
as A5s in this scenario since there is no call 4b range. Out of
principle I'd like to just 4b the stronger hand pre (A9s)...
However, looking at possible call 4b ranges from all spots A5s
actually holds the better equity. Therefore A5s on average
should net the higher EV and I need to adjust this thinking/my
ranges on account of this.
(21 minutes in...)
Made a couple adjustments above...
#Post#: 259--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3b/call 3b/4b ranges
DIR By: xxHaZ
Date: July 18, 2014, 2:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
4 bet hands to bluff with (from Internet video - relative to my
ranges):
UTG vs IP: AQo, AJs, ATs, KJs (maybe A9s or A5s)
UTG vs OOP: AQo, A9s, KJs, QJs
Against a balanced BL vs UTG 3b AJs-ATs actually have higher
equity to call instead of AQo (~44.5% vs 41.5%). This is leading
me to edit my UTG call vs OOP 3b range to include AJs-ATs
instead of 4 betting them as bluffs (and instead using AQo as a
disposable bluff).
I'm not sure if I should be using different quality hands to 4b
bluff with between IP and OOP 3 bettors... perhaps we prefer 3
betting suited combos w/ removal where there is a higher
likelihood we'll play IP in a 4b pot and usually be able to
control how the money goes in per street. That said, AQo
generally has the best removal preflop and typically in this
formation people play 5b or fold... so I like AQo for practical
purposes for the time being.
Like I said before Janda uses a 1V:2B ratio for UTG, whereas
Internet uses closer to 1V:1.25B taking removal into account to
"make a 5b bluff indifferent." I'm worried we will be 4 betting
too widely from UTG unless I figure out the explanation for
this. Best guess so far is the v.range only contains AA and we
want to choose our bluffs such that villain is indifferent to 5
bet bluffing: if you only call it off with AA potential 5b
bluffs have a lot less equity than versus a wider range and thus
need a lot more folds to break even. I find it odd Internet is 4
betting QQ+ from this formation as a standard.
CO vs OOP: A2s-A6s, A9s-A8s, KTs
"If we use too many Ax we could argue that we are too Ax
heavy... but I wouldn't worry about it at all." In theory he
thinks it's correct to spread out our bluffs a little more (QTs,
J9s, T9s, etc) but he wouldn't do this in practice b/c Ax has
better blockers but in theory terms that's what you're supposed
to do (+1 Janda). I think the wider we begin 4 betting (from BU
for instance) the more spread we desire in practice... the
narrower we 4b low Ax suited just has way better equity
post-flop against a call 4b range and better removal pre against
a 3b range... so we'll just use these combos.
While higher suited Ax has better equity against a 3b range,
lower suited Ax has better equity against a call 4b range.
Considering they are essentially the same quality bluff pre
(against a 3b range), we choose to 4b the hand with better
equity post (so I'll choose the lower Ax to 4b with, above).
At 51 mins in... (made some more range edits)
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