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#Post#: 293--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 16, 2016, 10:59 am
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Not exactly.
I'm saying reformat the way you are telling the story.
If this script isn't for readers, then don't bother sharing it.
Novels, manga, anime, they are all just mediums. Thats why we
use scripts. Im judging the story througj the scriot and if the
script doesnt tell the scenes accurately, then you have a
problem. Lunacy isn't designed like a novel. It clearly intended
to be manga.
I just describe the scenes in detail so they can visualize it
and make sure that the text doesn't.
You can't argue over something like this. Your example of "news"
and animation isn't quite correct.
You are starting to sound like the people who think you can't
judge something till it's the final product.
#Post#: 296--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 17, 2016, 12:16 pm
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[quote author=Tara link=topic=25.msg295#msg295 date=1453009880]
I'm not saying it's unjudgeable.[/quote]I know you're not saying
that. Thats what I'm saying. If you make something where you
don't give readers a clear idea. Then you shouldn't share it at
all. Or expect to receive judgement based on the lack of
clarity.
[Quote]
I'm saying that I will use gerunds or adverbs in place of where
graphic novel readers will have facial features and movements.
Not that important. I don't know why that statement set you off.
The script isn't that much different than Lunacy's. Italicized
words represent images. Everything else is spoken. Pretty
simple. Pretty easy to read. It's not that big of a deal, bro.
[/QUOTE] This is a very big deal. Because it shows you have no
depth. Difference between your script and mine: I give more
detail on the characters, enough to make them distinguishable.
[Quote]
You seem to have come to the conclusion that I think
illustrating is easy. I have every intention of changing FNO per
everyone's review if I agree. Now why would I devote countless
hours to creating a finished product of maybe 20 chapters just
so I can have a review that compels me to change chapter 2 and
then all the next 18 chapters have to be re-done accordingly.
That's why I post the script. To avoid wasted effort. You're
seeing exactly what I'm going to see, and even though
descriptions are vague now, they'll become more specific between
the drawing phase and scripting phase as I'll be researching
environments and fashion and more along the way, so my goal is
to make sure I capture the important details for you to see.
[/quote]
This is why you've never improved. To you environments and other
aspects are important, but the characters are not.
I don't think that you think illustrating is easy I think you
underestimate how valuable it is giving readers a descriptive
vision.
Your characters are dull. They have no distinctions at all.
Nothing I can say this is what makes them interesting. Their
dialogue is not that interesting.
So on top of that, you are intentionally being vague, basic, and
lack luster description to give us a better idea.
Stop trying to excuse your gerunds and adverbs if you know it
doesn't paint a good picture of your characters. You have to
also understand, this script is here to give us "clear" idea of
what your story is.
Otherwise, we'll review the story twice. One in script, and
another time when it's drawn. Thats time worth spending
reviewing solely on art.
#Post#: 297--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 17, 2016, 2:21 pm
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Here's something that always carries around in your work:
Lack-luster characters and convoluted/unnecessary complex story
Characters:
Your characters are either too extreme or too dull which both
lead to "indistinguishable". You never have the right balance.
Tara never has distinguishable qualities. At first you gave her
a strange background. And then there are characters who express
a lot of emotions, but they contradict each other. one point
theyre strong and suddenly weak. And again, one point a
character is crying over someone and then later they are
accusing that very person. You don't give us a strong idea of
who they are.
Characters also sound the same. They all have the same tone,
same word choice. When you give a side character, you give them
the generic treatment.
Story:
For a very simple idea, you just go all out on making things
complicated. It reminds me of the writers who think they are
being clever and end up creating unnecessary questions.
For me, this is what you always do. Always. You never have a
grounded story. Even when it's relatively simple.
Solution:
I honestly don't think you will ever see the benefit of starting
off simple and quality characters. You always have an idea
bigger than yourself. Something you have yet to grow into and
therefore constantly make the exact same mistakes over and over
and over.
The only way I believe you will ever get a grasp is giving FNO a
break and create a straightforward, character central story that
doesn't rely on complications. Just a few elements.
There's a reason why many as start off simple and then grow to
be more complex. In understand you changed this to a GN. But
still.
I know you will reject the idea. I know you will just try to
prove me wrong just because you think I'm wrong.
#Post#: 307--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 23, 2016, 8:12 pm
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Sorry for the weird reply. I don't know if need to be said. But
orchid and I are actually living together for some time. So we
tend toborrow each others stuff.
But anyways....I wanted to ask: if you think I'm wrong about
you. Why am I seeing the same pattern of issue? You tell me.
#Post#: 313--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Orchid Date: January 24, 2016, 1:07 pm
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Well I'm pretty sure the ending to this is leaving the game. But
why don't you tell us what we are suppose to feel so it's easier
to give advice. I read your chapter twice, and I didn't know how
I was suppose to feel in the entire 2 parts. you can make
questionnaires about how we feel about characters.
I recommended that to Lumaria once.
#Post#: 319--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 25, 2016, 9:18 pm
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[quote author=Tara link=topic=25.msg317#msg317 date=1453773268]
@Lumaria
FNO's story is simple, and it started off simple. A GM becomes
trapped in his own MMORPG. It's not impossible for me to write
chapter one with your ideal exposition, but I have trouble with
it because it requires a very different approach.[/quote] of
course it takes a different approach. But it also makes things
far more simpler.
[Quote]
So who is Tara anyway?
[spoiler]
HTML http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/26/20/44652026/photos/undefined/Tarabera.jpg[/spoiler]
Tara is actually the in-game-name (IGN), or nickname of Tamera
Phoenix. It's important to know the distinction because one
thing I want to focus on is how FNO affects her personality,
that is, how it brings out her personality. If I use the same
color scheme on the lineart you could probably connect the two
easily and rationalize the drastic differences in style.
What you should notice about both is a desire to be in control
and a sense of superiority. Obviously Tara is more aggressive
and more bossy while Tamera is more introverted and more
passive. [/Quote]
This is an over arching theme. But with what you told us before,
it's a completely different theme about Kheegan. This can be an
issue because they don't look like they work together.
[Quote]
About FNO
Leaving the game was actually not what I had in mind for the
ending of FNO. It seems reasonable for them to leave the game
eventually, yes, and that probably will be the last event that
happens, but I think you would better imagine the ending if I
explained some things. Tamera believes herself to be the expert
on everything Keaghan. They've had a very close relationship for
a long time. So if anyone thinks something different of Keaghan
she'll deny it. Imagine that construct is what I failed to
illustrate in that chapter.
However as Tamera explores FNO, she learns something about
Keaghan she never knew, rather, she never knew the magnitude of:
his obsessiveness. She never took the critics of his earlier
work seriously, but they affect him greatly. Also she learns how
much he loved her, etc. etc.. Her experience in FNO eventually
makes up for the 4 years she spent apart from him as he
developed FNO.
As for Keaghan his experience in FNO shows him what's truly
important. He finds he's traded his girlfriend's love for the
critics' love.
Now of course, you probably recall I said FNO was about the
relationship between 3 characters though I've only ever talked
about Keaghan and Tara. I'm just choosing not to reveal a
spoiler.
[/quote]
I think you have some serious things to look into. But you just
aren't making things easier for us to see a clear picture. Its
all over the place. If I'm going to see another mismatched group
of scenes and relevant info scattered then I think we finally
reached a standstill...whether or not Chapter 1 paints the end
game it should help paint a path for the reader to follow. So
it's not bad that is what people thought.
But you need to determine what the
#Post#: 329--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 30, 2016, 3:42 am
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In terms of standstill I meant we aren't moving forward. I'm
sure you knew I wasn't referring into a win lose situation. If
any of us gets a "checkmate" it's never going to be me in this
scenario. I'm here to provide insight on your story and helping
you progress. I feel however that the constant mass changes will
not help. I don't aim tonwin, I aim for you to win.
As for the new chapter 1, part 1: you clearly went for a slower
approach. it doesnt feel too rushed. But there needs to be a
little more in order to make sense.
[Quote]Tamera: My phone was on silent because of a thing I had
to do earlier. Wait, so, in your head, that means yes.[/quote]
This was a little too forced. If she added that she told him
before, then yes. Maybe her response was justified.
Additionally, I don't really like the mother as comedic relief.
that could've been perfect time for more Roan exposition without
feeling too forced. yet the whole mother in between tamera and
roan just wasn't cutting it.
because of that roans nature feels odd and most of tamera's mom
wasnt exactly informative. Tamera can look at who sent it rather
than her mom tell her.
Its not rushed, but the feeling of missing obvious info is there
while unnecessary info is being focused on.
EDIT: I don't see the logic in tameras personality shifts. If
your goal is to show how much kheegan lost, you can do it in a
simpler way. Overall I don't understand what you are trying to
focus on, kheegan or Tamera. Both are so polarized and both
demand their own separate stories.
One has to compliment the other. Their not a duo either. It
shows it in part 1.
#Post#: 332--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: John Will Date: January 30, 2016, 1:30 pm
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I see that you're focusing more on Tamera this time around.
She's so mean! ;D Which can be a good thing, since she's bitter
about Keaghan, but I must say it feels forced. It's also kinda
inconsistent, especially when this speech comes out of nowhere:
[quote author=Tara link=topic=25.msg328#msg328 date=1454134284]
Roan: (Looking over Tamera’s shoulder) Who’s Keaghan? Wait is he
that one guy who… freaking…”
Embarrassed, Tamera puts her phone away.
Tamera: (With contrastingly stylized images that follow) You
don’t know him. Four years ago Keaghan and I were dating. The
whole time we were together, he talked about how he wanted to
build his own game: one that would prove all the critics wrong.
Eventually, he got tired of talking and left. He said he’d found
a developer that liked his idea, all the way in Korea. He moved
away to work with them. I haven’t spoken to him since. He never
called, or visited, I assumed he moved on.
[/quote]
Basically the whole time so far she's been quite a b*tch to roan
and refrained from talking to him or explaining anything, then
all of a sudden she goes ahead and tells him a huge story. I
assume this is exposition, but it is done poorly and horribly
forced. First off, Roan didn't even probe her, she just went
ahead and gave him an earful. I suggest you make him get it out
of her, until she's spills it in parts, this way she'll feel
more 3 dimensional. But even then it'll just drag the chapter
out without selling the hook. As Hitchcock once said:
"Exposition is a pill that must be sugar-coated.". Basically,
look at your readers as dogs, and how do you get a dog to take
it's medication? You mix it with a treat. So you gotta make us
interested first, and we have to be unaware it's exposition at
all.
Right now I'm not feeling it with Tamera, she isn't very
interesting. Keaghan has more potential though, I recommend you
focus on him more. I'm under the impression that you're a girl,
so I'd understand if you would want Tamera as the main focus,
and the theme is also very gender-specific to women, which is
okay (I enjoy those stories). But even so she still feels like
more of a motivation for Keaghan than a protagonist. Other than
that she doesn't have much story, and as you said her life is
quite boring.
My biggest suggestion to you is to put FNO on hold for now and
try making short stories first (chapter length works) to develop
your story telling and characters. The most common mistake with
today's beginner manga writers is that they jump straight into
serial-length work. Everyone wants to tell their stories in
their entirety, but this is like trying to fly to mars without
having even gotten to the moon. Practice with smaller works and
you'll develop faster.
I apologize if I'm being too harsh, but I wanted to give you my
honest thoughts.
#Post#: 339--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Orchid Date: January 31, 2016, 1:30 am
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I just want ed to add that at least this new revision is easier
to read and I wasn't lost when I read it. So you did improve
there.
#Post#: 349--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 31, 2016, 10:14 pm
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unfortunately, if you want to improve, the best choice is often
trying out a more basic approach or try out something you're
normally not willing to do.
Tamera/Roan/Keaghan just not clicking for me at this time
because the only one you gave background was Keaghan. Tamera has
absolutely nothing at this moment. Keaghan on the other hand has
qualities that make him a central a character. How often do you
see this genre where the main Creator is trapped in his own
creation?
Unfortunately, treating everything as if it was a challenge
isn't something I would recommend. Creating something good is
always a challenge. But if you care about your story you should
know when it's best to take a new perspective. Lunacy has always
been my main priority but working on other stories and making
sure the concept is solid is what helps me look at Lunacy at a
light I don't see.
Something basic, simple, and easy to work with will still be a
"challenge". Because just because you are working with an easier
idea, doesn't mean the execution will be good.
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