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#Post#: 247--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: John Will Date: January 9, 2016, 6:35 pm
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Hello there Tara, I've read through what you've provided so far
and I'm here to give some criticism and advice.
Your premise is very interesting. There is so many ways this
story can be told to make use of it, but I think the way it is
now just isn't paying the premise the homage it deserves.
You're starting the story off when Keaghan is about to go jail,
and honestly that's just such a waste. Like Vince Gilligan says
(writer of the Emmy award winning teleplay Breaking Bad) you've
got to milk all the drama you can in your story, and FNO is big
cow.
You should try and focus the first chapter on Keaghan. Save his
girlfriend's hate for later. In fact why not even start it just
before the logout crisis? This way you can use the chapter to
build up on the game itself rather than relying on SAO to fill
in all the technical gaps as if everyone has seen it.
Honestly, so far the chapter feels like another take on SAO, but
the description suggests otherwise, so my advice is that you
turn the description into the first chapter rather than build on
it. Also, why use helmets? We've already seen that before, so
why not come up with something new? Make the manga it's own
story, tell it like it's never been told before. That's the
magic of manga.
This story has so much potential, so much MILK! I hope you take
my advice and create something fantastic, it really deserves to
be and I know you can do it. :)
#Post#: 253--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 10, 2016, 7:23 am
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I agree that the description was best suited as a 1st chapter
rather then being thrown in the middle of it. And i also agree
the characters resemble a little on SAO (and Log Horizon).
But there are certain things you don't beat around the bush, and
there are things that you don't need to push so hard. If a
character feels relatively normal then you don't need to give
any heavy details on their background.
If a character is acting irrationally to the point that these
characters don't feel very realistic, then thats were some
background information can be added. or make another character
point out how irrational so that readers don't feel like its not
recognized by the author.
You have to be aware of the reader just as much as you are aware
of the story. Otherwise, one perfectly planned moment in the
story will feel like a big mistake.
#Post#: 257--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 10, 2016, 11:17 pm
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Think first about what chapter 1 will contain. Get the very
basic structure. Beginning is about this, middle is about that,
and ending is about something else. Basically break it down.
Then try to find the things what bridges the beginning, middle,
and end (this is something that you need to focus on considering
the track record).
Its all about figuring out if what you are introducing is
something that has to be hinted or revealed with more detail.
#Post#: 259--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: John Will Date: January 11, 2016, 3:11 pm
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@Lumaria: What I mean't was to start from the beginning so there
doesn't have to be so much backstory. Good point about being
aware of the readers.
@Tara: It's a pleasure :)
#Post#: 260--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Orchid Date: January 11, 2016, 11:45 pm
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[quote author=John Will link=topic=25.msg259#msg259
date=1452546674]
[member=2]Lumaria[/member]: What I mean't was to start from the
beginning so there doesn't have to be so much backstory. Good
point about being aware of the readers.
[member=7]Tara[/member]: It's a pleasure :)
[/quote]yes. We are on the same page.
After reading it. I too believe it could benefit from starting
from the very beginning. Feels like we're playing catch up on
things that should he obvious.
#Post#: 263--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 14, 2016, 12:42 am
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[quote author=Tara link=topic=25.msg262#msg262 date=1452735423]
I'd like to point out that starting from the beginning is
problematic. Either you're expecting large timeskips, watching
Tara's boring life at home, or Keaghan being overworked in
Korea.[/quote]Essentially just following the initial success of
the MMO and then quickly turning bad right when characters are
enjoying the success. And everything leading to the point where
Keaghan feels going into the game is the only way to solve the
problem. That's it...that is your beginning. And you know whats
crazy? That can take up only "half" of a first chapter. Just
half. But its recommended to show FNO world at the very very
end. Because at least that gives the sense that the first
chapter was all exposition and the mainstream chapters are just
starting. I know its a habit for shonen to show the gritty
action by chapter 1, but not all of them need it. You really
don't need to cut that out and throw it in the middle of the
story.
All the other details you planned for the past, and such can be
expanded in further chapters too. But there is also one vital
flaw: You described Tara as boring. There is no redeeming
quality of this character at all even before the story begins?
[quote]Of course, there is drama to be milked out of that time
frame if I take it over the course of a few chapters, but that's
not what FNO is about. FNO is about the relationship between 3
specific characters and these characters do not communicate
until FNO launches (or before FNO is in production). If I put
too much focus on before the launch, chapter one will be
representing the wrong story. [/quote]FNO isn't about drama, but
you sure use a lot of it, and you just kind of just leave it
hanging there without any reason. And there is no real hint that
this is something you planned, or this is just you not
understanding how stories work. And if its hard to choose
between either one, its usually the latter.
These characters would have "had" to communicate at one point.
There is an efficient way to introduce characters to the reader
as if it was the first time despite them meeting again. And
thats if you put them in anormal environment first before
throwing them in a crazy turmoil.
[quote]
Furthermore I am not convinced that the words "trapped in an
MMORPG" which can be used to describe FNO and SAO are grounds to
define FNO as a clone of SAO. How about: "Trapped in an
alternate world", now count how many earlier stories SAO is a
copy of based on that description. E.g. Futurama, Inception,
Alice in Wonderland, Naruto: Road to Ninja, etc. If you think
I'm trying to copy SAO, take it from me that I hate SAO. I don't
like .hack and I don't like Log Horizon. And not the fanboy hate
"aw I wish they would do this". I don't like anything about SAO.
I don't like the characters, the game, or the story. FNO is not
meant to jump on the MMORPG manga "genre" just to be like SAO or
the others. I'm using it as another way to tell my original
story: "Dark Lineage", or "Sentiera: Legends" as some may know
it. [/quote]
Funny you say this Kesashi. Because you essentially started out
this story in complete belief of how an MMO works. In fact your
characters and system was all derived from the hard-core gamer
aspect more than the world. Yuw anted to completely warp ideas
of characters contorlling two different Avatars at the same
time, you also wanted to focus on the more technical side as
well.
You actually admitted that Log Horizon was the main inspiration
at the time. Now you're saying you don't like either SAO nor Log
Hog Horizon? Now i understand the idea of being trapped in a new
world. But MMO adds a distinct complexity. I'm not saying its
the most important aspect, but its one of the important aspects
by selling the idea that they're in an MMO. you just need those
smaller things.
Also, Sentiera was essentially a mess of a story. It was so raw,
it had no structure.
[quote]
SAO doesn't own virtual reality and they weren't the first to
use it. So I'll use helmets if I want. And I'll use an MMORPG,
and I will tell it like it's never been told before.[/quote]I
see you're getting frustrated. but guess who told vampire
stories like never before? Twilight. Guess who was inspired by
that and made a fanfiction on it? 50 shades of grey.
Everytime people try to reinvent the way of story telling it
doesn't go well. Story telling has been for centuries. Don't try
to reinvent something so hardwired.
[quote]
Also in the past I've met some scrutiny over my practice of
describing character's as they speak with gerunds or adverbs in
the scripts. The script is for me, not the reader. The reader's
not going to see "(Smiling)" in the word bubble. He's going to
see the character smile. I assume a week from now I won't know
exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it so I'd like to give
myself as vivid an image as possible. That's what that means. I
remember the quote fondly "if you have to use an adverb to
describe a character you're not doing it right". If only I could
remember who said that, but since I don't and it's probably how
others feel I'd just like to make it clear this is graphic
novel. I don't know who writes a script for a narrative, but to
each their own.
[/quote]
Emotions just shift far too fast, and its harder for people to
adjust to it. In fact these characters feel more and more
generic each time i read. I can't distinguish a character that
is mature and full of potential. If you're not writing for your
readers. Why are you sharing the story? That is a very serious
question, Kesashi. I'm not kidding here at all. I revise my
chapters for the reade, so i can get the best reviews possible.
What is motivating you to share this story that you are not
intending to be compatible with readers?
#Post#: 270--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: John Will Date: January 14, 2016, 3:16 am
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@Lumaria: You hit the nail on the head.
@Tara: Other than what Lumaria had to say, all I can add is that
originality is the only reason someone should pick up a pen. You
shouldn't write if it's not to expand on the world around you,
otherwise you're just wasting your precious time on this planet.
I don't mean that in a bad way, if you love to write then by all
means write! Just "make use of the life bestowed upon" you.
#Post#: 279--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: John Will Date: January 14, 2016, 9:22 pm
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[quote author=Tara link=topic=25.msg277#msg277 date=1452813944]
You both have misunderstood me, I'm not trying to reinvent
something and I'm not trying to tell SAO how I want things done.
I said what I said about Log Horizon a year ago and since then
my perspective of it has changed. I am trying to create
something different. If FNO existed. I would just read that
manga. But I searched, and couldn't find it, so I decided I'll
make it. That's why I write. Why would I waste my time writing
SAO as if it didn't exist when I could just watch it? Even
though I claimed inspiration from Log Horizon back then, it
would be different I were working on chapter 2. Given that I'm
still on chapter 1 it's hard to say this is the same story it
was last year, and It's not.
[/quote]
Fair enough, you've got a point in saying you want to write the
manga you haven't come across.
As for your view on originality, I strongly disagree, but if we
go back and forth on that argument this will become a discussion
on opinions and not FNO.
As you have said that you are planing to draw FNO, would you be
making any storyboards/names/neemu in the future? It would be a
lot more easier for me to judge that. I will still read FNO
regardless, but it is a lot more easier to analyze it as a manga
if it were pictures and panels.
#Post#: 281--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: John Will Date: January 15, 2016, 2:06 am
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I look forward to them! ;)
#Post#: 284--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Fall of Nations Online
By: Lumaria Date: January 15, 2016, 3:21 am
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[quote author=Tara link=topic=25.msg277#msg277 date=1452813944]
You both have misunderstood me, I'm not trying to reinvent
something and I'm not trying to tell SAO how I want things done.
I said what I said about Log Horizon a year ago and since then
my perspective of it has changed. I am trying to create
something different. If FNO existed. I would just read that
manga. But I searched, and couldn't find it, so I decided I'll
make it. That's why I write. Why would I waste my time writing
SAO as if it didn't exist when I could just watch it? Even
though I claimed inspiration from Log Horizon back then, it
would be different I were working on chapter 2. Given that I'm
still on chapter 1 it's hard to say this is the same story it
was last year, and It's not.
This was FNO until April 3rd, 2015
"The Fall of Nations Online is a virtual reality MMORPG where
players build up small communities into ruling nations. As the
nations grow in size and power they also become more volatile.
Guilds of players lord over smaller guilds in the land and their
guild members makeup the ruling class.
Tara, like all other players finds herself trapped inside the in
game world as her avatar, however for some unknown reason she
has lost all of her memories of her past within the game and
back home. Aided by a very eccentric friend, Tara journeys
around the in-game world searching for friends and answers and
involuntarily becoming the catalyst that destroys every nation
she comes across. "
I would say a few things have changed.
Furthermore, "What has been will be again, what has been done
will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there
anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It
was here already, long ago," (Ecclesiastes 1: 9-10) so don't
expect too much from originality. I could go so far as to create
a new language, make up a new species, new laws of physics, and
it would all just waste the reader's time.
Also, Sentieria was written by a child. It's more than half a
decade old. Sentieria was the predecessor to Dark Lineage which
I've never posted. FNO is based on Dark Lineage which is based
on Sentieria. Sentieria became that mess from my obsessive
desire to be "original". Capture any ideas you can and hold onto
them. If they're your ideas, use them, even if it doesn't make
sense cause originality is so precious. Everybody wants to be an
OG, right? It's to the point where it's almost unoriginal to try
to be "original".
What I said about the script was about formatting, not plot. I
am writing for the reader, but it is formatted for me. When I
draw, I will be drawing for the reader/viewer. But for now, this
needs to work for me most of all. This has nothing to do with
plot or characters, this is about structure. I'm not going to
sell the script in stores. Is that what you're planning to
do?[/quote] You're script is getting in the way of telling a
compelling plot. And you shouldn't wait for the drawn chapter.
You should be able to make a proper script. Yes, it can be a
hassle, but its not something incompatible.
This has everything to do with plot and structure. Finding the
right format helps you find the laws faster. Helps you see where
you are rushing, and where you are just going too slow.
Everything has to be done for the reader, because if you want a
proper review, you need to make it intended for readers.
[quote]
"Tara's boring life" Is what I said. Tara's life is boring.
You're really fixated on this Tara-hate thing. I think Tara has
interesting character design. I'm constantly simulating more
potent ways to write about her. I'm usually very goal oriented
when I write about her, and I see that's a problem. Tara's life
is steady. It would awkward to focus on a character with such a
steady life for one chapter and then move onto this life or
death crisis for the rest for the rest of the story.
[/quote]
Hey my life is normal, but i wouldn't call it "boring". If you
describe your character with boring, including their lives, then
you done something wrong. In a sense, this character becomes
boring.
This has nothing to do with Tara's design (although it is left
to be desired). Unfortunately you just don't have good ways to
really portray characters.
Look Kesashi. You are falling in the exact same trap as before.
You have goals...but you do virtually nothing about it on paper.
Tell me in this chapter what makes Tara interesting?
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