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#Post#: 1875--------------------------------------------------
SJWs
By: Orchid Date: July 2, 2017, 12:35 am
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What are your views on Social Justice Warriors (or SJWs as it's
commonly abbreviated)? I believe that they are becoming very
dangerous. The idea of a group of people looking out for the
little guy who gets hurt by race isn't bad. But they promote the
most twisted people.
Some of these ideas are ridiculous but the media makes them out
to be saviors. I had a coworker flip out because she didn't like
her new boss and her main reason for not liking him was a white
male. I out this in the Coffee House section because I wanted a
serious discussion about this and we have plenty of smart people
here who can bring something to the table.
I also thought this was a jumping on point for more serious
discussions too.
#Post#: 1877--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: TheSlamJam Date: July 2, 2017, 2:56 pm
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I think it depends on the context you use SJW to describe a
person. People who continuously take action to overcome real
discrimination, inequality and injustice do excellent work. For
example, Amnesty International do some excellent work to help
overcome issues in social justice through fighting for Human
Rights. Similarly, without activists and good social thinking,
many services would be inadequately able to serve people that
may need it the most. For example, ramps & elevators for those
that need wheelchairs/mobility issues. Overall, whether
something is good should entirely be based on their actions.
Right now in my country, the Fitness for Work thing is a great
example of why social justice activism is needed, as our Mental
Health Assessment for fitness for work is terrible and likely
causing harm to those with mental illness.
I personally believe there is an issue in debate, especially in
America. It seems like people are simply unwilling to listen to
opposition, but this can expand to hundreds of topics outside of
Feminism, and it's something that's echoed throughout human
history. From Flat Earth, to modern 'sensitivity' towards topics
such as racism, misogyny, misandry and more. Whilst there are
some people with extreme left wing ideologies and opinions of
how society should be structured, I believe the best approach is
discussion. Unfortunately, people with extremist ideologies are
usually disinterested in the type of discussion that's usually
needed to fix these issues. Whether it be extreme social justice
activation, extremist religious views, etc.
#Post#: 1879--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: Lumaria Date: July 2, 2017, 9:26 pm
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[quote author=J_Draws link=topic=146.msg1877#msg1877
date=1499025369]
I think it depends on the context you use SJW to describe a
person. People who continuously take action to overcome real
discrimination, inequality and injustice do excellent work. For
example, Amnesty International do some excellent work to help
overcome issues in social justice through fighting for Human
Rights. Similarly, without activists and good social thinking,
many services would be inadequately able to serve people that
may need it the most. For example, ramps & elevators for those
that need wheelchairs/mobility issues. Overall, whether
something is good should entirely be based on their actions.
Right now in my country, the Fitness for Work thing is a great
example of why social justice activism is needed, as our Mental
Health Assessment for fitness for work is terrible and likely
causing harm to those with mental illness.
I personally believe there is an issue in debate, especially in
America. It seems like people are simply unwilling to listen to
opposition, but this can expand to hundreds of topics outside of
Feminism, and it's something that's echoed throughout human
history. From Flat Earth, to modern 'sensitivity' towards topics
such as racism, misogyny, misandry and more. Whilst there are
some people with extreme left wing ideologies and opinions of
how society should be structured, I believe the best approach is
discussion. Unfortunately, people with extremist ideologies are
usually disinterested in the type of discussion that's usually
needed to fix these issues. Whether it be extreme social justice
activation, extremist religious views, etc.
[/quote]
What you described is just a general "Activist" and being an
activist isn't synonymous with SJW as much as SJWs like to
believe.
Social Justice Warriors in my honest opinion are the "Hipsters"
crowd of Activists. They tackle issues they contrived or use
numbers like they don't understand to create an issue and want
to tackle it the easy way. And yes I do believe that SJWs will
claim to be feminists but those extreme feminist really have the
exact same ideology as the SJWs even by how they refute facts by
name calling they just choose different words.
When I first heard of the wage gap and was told to ask a man for
their earnings to prove it, I knew that they had to make a
mistake. They can't systematically take account of my race and
gender and pay me less at least in my job. I knew something was
wrong and when I did the research (which wasn't hard to do) I
learned that women aren't being systematically being paid less
so why do people want to believe something that clearly goes
against everything United States stands for?
It's just sad. I do find them dangerous in the sense that they
want to influence the younger crowd and see it their way.
#Post#: 1882--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: Orchid Date: July 3, 2017, 9:59 pm
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I never run into an SJW and was nice about it or wasn't extreme.
#Post#: 1907--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: HematoLogMeIn Date: July 19, 2017, 9:57 am
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I'll be frank. Extremists of any sort are a pain. They really
can be dangerous.
However, you can't judge an entire group based on its
extremists. There are a lot of loudmouthed and ignorant
Christians, but they don't speak for everyone, and the same
applies to SJWs. I technically qualify as one (an SJW), but I do
this thing where I actually study sociology and power structures
so that I can understand when exactly someone's rights are being
stepped on. We can be few and far between, but we do exist. I
don't verbally assault people or try to correct them if they say
something that can be construed as ----ist, but if they start
threatening actual violence, I try to say, "Woah, isn't that a
little much?" I recognize that freedom of speech extends to
bigots and idiots, so I don't try to "shut them up". It's not
really that hard. IMO to separate the good and the bad with
different labels (e.g. "activists" vs "sjws") is useless. There
are bad apples in every group, and every group has to realize
that they have those bad apples.
SJW is just the new movement that's become a slur thanks to its
extremists, just like mama feminism.
#Post#: 1918--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: Lumaria Date: July 19, 2017, 3:20 pm
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So if we take the extreme out of SJWs are they still SJW? I
personally say no. I personally never met an SJW in my entire
life who wasn't extreme. Only those who claimed they were SJWs.
But I say they are slightly misunderstood because you would be
surprised how many non-SJW who claim they do have the same moral
compass of a Right-wing person.
It's difficult when people identify as one and don't describe
what separates the extreme from the norm.the extreme is the norm
at least to the mass population who is aware of the term and
mainstream media. Mainstream media either supports SJW thinking
to the point of extremity or disaproves for its extremities. I
had never seen a middle ground that other people already dont
fall into and still easily identify as one.
Worst I don't even see a single select group of SJWs upset with
how mainstream SJWs portray themselves. At least feminist will
call out another feminist for being too extreme and truly feel
passionate about how mainstream third wave feminism has
destroyed their image.
So I would like to know what an SJW and an extreme SJW? If it
does exist?
It also bothers me when people use the word bigots.The word
means "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different
opinions." And although right-wing or just general people may
highly disapprove ideology of an SJW, it can apply to anyone
including SJWs.
Just to be clear that SJW are very different fro. Activist
although fall in the same area. AN Activist may fight for a
white male because he's losing his home due to illegal/shady
practices by the bank or goverment. A N Activist may fight for
less fishing in Antarctica to preserve the eco system. AN SJW
won't fight for those things...at least not as an SJW.
#Post#: 1919--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: HematoLogMeIn Date: July 19, 2017, 3:47 pm
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I think you missed the part where there is one right in front of
you now. I'm the person who will call someone out for being too
extreme, and yes, I was including SJW extremists in with "bigots
and idiots" who also have the right to freedom of speech.
I'd also like to point out that there are probably countries
that you haven't seen or been to, but that doesn't mean that
they don't exist. That in and of itself would render your "I
haven't seen them therefore they aren't real to me" argument
kinda...moot?
It's also not exactly the place of someone from the outside to
define a group. SJW is an umbrella term, and a lot of things fit
into it. I'm not sure why that's so hard to wrap your head
around. Like, wow, the difference between an SJW and an extreme
SJW is that the extremist is extreme? Fancy that. Besides, isn't
it the case that just about everybody loves to set up a strawman
in the media? Especially these days, the loudest and most
ridiculous of a group tend to get the most coverage because
they're the most "interesting" [or profitable]. It happens all
the time with feminism, too. Most people I know don't even
identify with feminism because of the negative connotation.
But, I suppose to give you an example, an extreme SJW is the
person who will get aggressive because somebody "misgendered"
somebody, whereas in my case, I'm more concerned about the
person being legally recognized as the gender they identify as
and that they have a place to pee, so I'd only step in if it
actually boiled over into harassment, and even then I would try
to avoid fueling the fire and simply saying something more along
the lines of "Look, you two probably aren't going to agree. Why
not just walk away, then?"
For the record though, if the white male is dealing with a
corrupt bank, that still could classify as an SJW issue, as
could environmental protection.
#Post#: 1924--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: Lumaria Date: July 20, 2017, 2:15 am
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[quote author=HematoLogMeIn link=topic=146.msg1919#msg1919
date=1500497258]
I think you missed the part where there is one right in front of
you now. I'm the person who will call someone out for being too
extreme, and yes, I was including SJW extremists in with "bigots
and idiots" who also have the right to freedom of
speech.[/quote] No offense. But I'm looking at someone who calls
themselves an SJW. Whether you are one has not been determined
to be a fact. And I'll get back to this in a moment because this
implies that you know what an SJW is just by identifying as one.
[Quote]I'd also like to point out that there are probably
countries that you haven't seen or been to, but that doesn't
mean that they don't exist. That in and of itself would render
your "I haven't seen them therefore they aren't real to me"
argument kinda...moot?[/quote]
Because you only see SJWonly as an ideology but it has become a
movement just like feminism. That's why you hear so many
negative reactions when SJWs
That fallacy doesn't apply. I'm saying that I never seen an SJW
who isn't extreme because by definition of what people use SJW
for is extremity. Those who claim they are SJW are usually
either extreme or not an SJW. And I'll get back to this in a
moment.
[Quote]It's also not exactly the place of someone from the
outside to define a group. SJW is an umbrella term, and a lot of
things fit into it. I'm not sure why that's so hard to wrap your
head around. Like, wow, the difference between an SJW and an
extreme SJW is that the extremist is extreme? Fancy that.
Besides, isn't it the case that just about everybody loves to
set up a strawman in the media? Especially these days, the
loudest and most ridiculous of a group tend to get the most
coverage because they're the most "interesting" [or profitable].
It happens all the time with feminism, too. Most people I know
don't even identify with feminism because of the negative
connotation. [/quote]
Because it is a defined group of People for specific ideology
and methods? Maybe not organized but it's collective ideology
that has no middle ground. The fact that you recognize people
don't identify as feminist is because of negative connotations
means you know that feminist isn't an umbrella term. It's
identifying as a specific group of people. The negative
connotations are now part of the identity. It doesn't matter
what the textbook definition is or used to be.
BUT Feminist have a better chance saying "were an umbrella term"
because they actually segregate to different groups. Not all
feminist agree with eachother and there are Feminist who will
fight for what they believe against the other feminist. It is
clear that there is "good" feminists and "bad feminists".
Whether or not people agree with me which ones are the good
ones.
SJW however has none of that distinction. When you hear about
SJWS its usually with the negative connotations. And for the
record mainstrewm media is a compliment. Non mainstream news
definitely dont like SJWs either are much more vocal and will
call them out far more often and frequently.
There is no specific segregation to clearly identify which is
good or which is bad. But you never hear about someone who
actively considers themselves an SJW. And to be fair I give the
same treatment to feminist. Feminist is a movement behind an
ideology. SJW is a movement aswell.
SJW isn't used as an umbrella term. It could be But its not.
People know exactly what type of person they are referring to
when they use it. The same for feminist and feminist still has a
lot of leeway.
[Quote]But, I suppose to give you an example, an extreme SJW is
the person who will get aggressive because somebody
"misgendered" somebody, whereas in my case, I'm more concerned
about the person being legally recognized as the gender they
identify as and that they have a place to pee, so I'd only step
in if it actually boiled over into harassment, and even then I
would try to avoid fueling the fire and simply saying something
more along the lines of "Look, you two probably aren't going to
agree. Why not just walk away, then?" [/quote]
I'm concerned with people having a place to use the bathroom.
It's a civil rights issue. Unless you are talking about people
dissatisfied with where they go over where they want to. And
that is tricky grey area. Because that also involves how people
identify as...and that's another area that could be extreme
because people can treat gender identity like shoes.Trans go
through bigger hoops to identify the gender they do. And for
reasons. Not all good but not all bad either.
But all of this doesn't point to SJW. There is a group specific
to fighting for LGBTQ rights and don't identify as an SJW. And
that's most likely because of negative connotations aswell.
[Quote]For the record though, if the white male is dealing with
a corrupt bank, that still could classify as an SJW issue, as
could environmental protection.
[/quote]
It's a social issue...not a SJW issue. You're trying very hard
to separate what it's used for what the basic definition it's
trying to be. But not all movements are good even if good
intentions. And an SJW is treated as a single specific group of
people who attempt to make a movement of what they believe.
I'm sorry but SJW at least in the modern day isn't a regular
umbrella term everyone can say they identify as or not. SJW
speaks through actions. Extreme ones. There is no SJW without
extremity. You're not one if you're not extreme. Maybe look into
why SHE has had a bad light. Because I do believe you don't hit
the surface with what it is.
#Post#: 1930--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: HematoLogMeIn Date: July 20, 2017, 12:45 pm
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I see that you've settled yourself into your idea and will hear
nothing to the contrary of what you believe. You see SJW as
adhering to a strict set of codes of action that have no
differentiation from one person to another within the group,
whereas I see it as what the acronym actually stands for: social
justice warrior. I fight with my votes and by actually trying to
educate myself on political, cultural, and community effects of
different groups, be it on the grounds of gender, sexuality,
class, "race", ethnicity, and/or etc. I see that there are
people demanding to "kill all cishet male scum" and saying "I'd
never breastfeed if I had a male son", but that doesn't mean
that I can't look at some of the ideas presented in their
literature (yes, they have literature, e.g. this text, which I
actually had to read for one of my required courses in the
college of ed
HTML https://www.amazon.com/Everyone-Introduction-Concepts-Education-Multicultural/dp/080775269X)<br
/>and, despite disagreeing with some of it, take some of the ide
as
that work and apply them to how I view the world. (I can also
say that if I did a study on the different views of people just
within the LGBT center here on campus, it'd show the different
shades of agreement to the terms presented in literature such as
this, even within a community that heavily identifies as SJW.
I hope you at least give the book a once-over, though. Some of
it I do disagree with due an extremity that doesn't quite settle
with me, and even though it's targeted to teacher ed students,
it does present some interesting perspective into why SJWs are
presented as "extreme" and asks some good questions. It may
solidify your perspective for you, or it might not.
I will only add "just because something has a bad light or bad
reputation doesn't have to automatically mean that everything
about it and within it is automatically as bad as that light or
reputation." or, "generalizing a whole based on some of its
parts doesn't always work," and hop on out of this discussion
for a while. I've contributed all that I can for now.
#Post#: 1941--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJWs
By: Lumaria Date: July 21, 2017, 3:22 am
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[quote author=HematoLogMeIn link=topic=146.msg1930#msg1930
date=1500572746]
I see that you've settled yourself into your idea and will hear
nothing to the contrary of what you believe. You see SJW as
adhering to a strict set of codes of action that have no
differentiation from one person to another within the group,
whereas I see it as what the acronym actually stands for: social
justice warrior.[/quote]
No when I say SJW I say Social Justice warrior. What you are
actually trying to argue over is the ideology behind it. In that
case SJWisn't universally accepted by it's textbook definition
more by the negative connotations. And that has to do with why
it's even being used today.
If you do your research on the word Social Justice Warrior from
its conception to its resurgence you'll be happy to find that
"social justice warrior" was never a popular term, it's
conception is still relatively argued but some say 90s or 80s.
Not that old. Nut no the word became mainstream and officially
added into Oxford dictionary due to significant usage by
Society.
Social activism isn't always hated. SJW however is just an
extreme side to it. The word became popular due to that. What
you're trying to do is defend the textbook definition behind the
slur and ignore why it's. Slur in the first place and where it
stands in society.
[Quote]I fight with my votes and by actually trying to educate
myself on political, cultural, and community effects of
different groups, be it on the grounds of gender, sexuality,
class, "race", ethnicity, and/or etc.[/quote]
So do any other person who doesn't identify as a SJW. I dare say
some who identify as an anti-SJW do this religiously.
[Quote]I will only add "just because something has a bad light
or bad reputation doesn't have to automatically mean that
everything about it and within it is automatically as bad as
that light or reputation." or, "generalizing a whole based on
some of its parts doesn't always work," and hop on out of this
discussion for a while. I've contributed all that I can for now.
[/quote]
Or call yourself a Social Activist and not an SJW and suddenly
the seam tics problem is solved and you still have the same
ideology. In fact you make this whole discussion much easier if
you do. .
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