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       #Post#: 1559--------------------------------------------------
       The difference between a story with MMO setting and an MMO theme
       d story.
       By: Lumaria Date: January 9, 2017, 11:30 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I really wanted to make this because i felt many of the issues
       with comparing different stories with MMO involved, are not
       always fair. First off, i want to clarify the difference between
       an story with an MMORPG setting, and a MMO themed story.
       Stories with MMO setting:
       Stories using MMORPG as a setting more than as the main theme
       don't necessarily explain a lot as to how the MMORPG works, and
       how it can be successful if it was a real game. Creative license
       usually takes over above all else if it means telling a
       compelling story. The biggest example of this is dot-hack.
       Dot-hack has an MMORPG known simply as "The World". Its distinct
       and easy to tell that it's a fantasy MMO. But usually doesn't
       explain "how" the MMO, just enough to know how it effects the
       story. Most of the times the themes are how personalities are
       effected in an MMO and the curiosity of what the other person is
       like in the real world. In my opinion, dot-hack succeeds in what
       it wants to achieve. There are other things affecting the MMORPG
       "The World" that can't be tackled as if you were playing an MMO,
       the MMO is simply the obstacle they need to overcome.
       Another series is "Is it wrong to pick up girls in a dungeon?".
       This one sort of counts but not fully as gods have transformed
       the world MMO-like rules such as armor, spells, and leveling up,
       and a simplified and easy to understand economy. But doesn't
       explain how you can learn these abilities or how to level up.
       only that it is difficult and take a long time, and for story
       purposes the main character manages to level up at a unusual
       way.
       For this series, the purpose of using game mechanics was exactly
       to show how much progression a character has made and how much
       recognition which readers can understand immediately based on
       how this world works.
       
       MMO-themed stories
       MMO stories such as Log Horizon and SAO are stories that use MMO
       fully as the theme and main intent to fully make us believe that
       these MMOs could exist in the real world. Explaining how combat
       works, how leveling works, how players can have the biggest
       advantage is what drives the entertainment value. Log Horizon
       has the biggest advantage of this as the main characters are
       adults who major in the kind of thinking and fully take
       advantage of the MMO gameplay and use it to their advantage.
       The SAO predicament
       Why SAO is bad? because it doesn't convey exactly what the story
       should be. should it be a heavily themed MMO or should it be a
       story that happens to use MMO as a setting?
       The simplest terms as to why SAO fails is that it wants us to be
       immersed in the idea that SAO is going to be the first MMO to
       use VR. It wants us to believe in the numbers given despite the
       numbers not being big. It wants us to enjoy the world and the
       mechanics when the mechanics don't make too much sense.
       So when you don't have a believable MMO, what you have left is
       to rely on the story. And what does this story give us? The
       story gives us characters that have potential to be something
       more than what they are. And although the story seems to make it
       like they did, they ended up being the same characters only
       getting what they want. Worst of all the main premise also
       doesn't make any sense and characters don't even try hard enough
       to explore the glaring issues. It could be that the novel
       explores more. But i dont believe an entire anime series would
       be willing to dumb down the story that much.
       IN the end, rather than expanding the SAO with expansion and new
       mechanics, it goes make a completely new MMO with its own flaws
       (that make no sense for the story) and then does it again for a
       second time. It does explore some things that make me personally
       believe it wants us to think that it uses MMO setting to explore
       other themes, but it doesn't. Which makes it even harder to
       appreciate.
       How to make a good MMO-themed story and a good story with MMO
       setting:
       #1) MMO needs to have a purpose (even if its not the main
       purpose of the story). Usually one of the biggest themed
       explored in both is the gap between the real world and the
       online world. Other themes could be explored as well.
       #2) The MMO needs to have all the very basics of what makes it
       an MMO or one that you can see players playing. Elements such as
       such as getting the best armor, monsters to fight and level up,
       towns and/or cities for players to either trade or be social and
       be immersed.
       #3) Make sure you focus on the story being just as compelling.
       Many problems SAO had is that it brought glaring issues to the
       story and did not address the problems at all. Characters were
       also very one-dimensional. If you have interesting compelling
       character and story on top of a great MMO theme or setting.
       #4) Whatever you do introduce, make sure it's well thought out.
       If you're not a hardcore MMO player, ask around and make sure
       it's not too obscure.
       #Post#: 1563--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The difference between a story with MMO setting and an MMO t
       hemed story.
       By: Orchid Date: January 11, 2017, 8:49 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I like how you differentiated .hack from SAO and how they are on
       different levels.
       I also think .hack was around the time where MMORPG using VR was
       still impossible for the time and that's why it doesn't explain
       a lot.
       #Post#: 1564--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The difference between a story with MMO setting and an MMO t
       hemed story.
       By: Lumaria Date: January 12, 2017, 12:58 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Maybe, but the dot hack series has continued for a while now
       even as SAO and Log Horizon grow popular. I still see the same
       themes being explored and the MMORPG aspects are always in the
       background.
       #Post#: 1703--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The difference between a story with MMO setting and an MMO t
       hemed story.
       By: Crackhead Johny Date: April 21, 2017, 10:55 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       SAO fails hard and on many levels.
       1. a MMO as the world where the story happens, is just an
       additional layer to tell the readers that the story doesn't
       matter. Why add that other layer? (MMOS are hot right now lets
       make that into a story!!! blech)
       2. Trying to make the game world matter to the real world
       requires some heavy duty level stupid when it comes to the
       writing.
       3. We now have a generation of people who have played MMOs so
       when you make it clear that you have no clue about MMOs and you
       want to write a story about them?.. yeouch!
       4. MMOs revolve around grinding and griefers. SOA doesn't know
       this.
       5. People in the real world couldn't figure out how to fix the
       murdering griefer problem by simply disconnecting the bad
       people.
       6. card board cut out cliche characters you cannot care about.
       7. the "you can't disconnect it or you will die!" trope.. dumb
       every time someone trots it out for another flogging.
       SAO is like retardation masonry with one layer of stupid built
       on the last layer of stupid which was built on the previous
       layer of stupid and so on.
       #Post#: 1705--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The difference between a story with MMO setting and an MMO t
       hemed story.
       By: Lumaria Date: April 23, 2017, 6:24 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Crackhead Johny link=topic=128.msg1703#msg1703
       date=1492833333]
       SAO fails hard and on many levels.
       1. a MMO as the world where the story happens, is just an
       additional layer to tell the readers that the story doesn't
       matter. Why add that other layer? (MMOS are hot right now lets
       make that into a story!!! blech)[/quote] agreed. If they do add
       that layer of has to be relevant. Other than that
       [Quote]
       2. Trying to make the game world matter to the real world
       requires some heavy duty level stupid when it comes to the
       writing.
       3. We now have a generation of people who have played MMOs so
       when you make it clear that you have no clue about MMOs and you
       want to write a story about them?.. yeouch! [/quote]
       This is where creative license and filling the blanks is
       important. Not every story is going to be perfect, especially
       involving MMO.
       making sure you know what kind of story you want to make. SAO
       just doesn't know of it wants to be a story with an MMO setting
       or an MMO story. It's somewhere inbetween. It wants to be taken
       seriously but then fails on the very things it wants people you
       to take seriously.
       I think most people can forgive the large gaps if the NON aspect
       wasn't so forced on.
       [Quote]
       4. MMOs revolve around grinding and griefers. SOA doesn't know
       this.
       5. People in the real world couldn't figure out how to fix the
       murdering griefer problem by simply disconnecting the bad
       people. [/quote]
       [Quote]
       6. card board cut out cliche characters you cannot care about.
       7. the "you can't disconnect it or you will die!" trope.. dumb
       every time someone trots it out for another flogging.
       SAO is like retardation masonry with one layer of stupid built
       on the last layer of stupid which was built on the previous
       layer of stupid and so on.
       [/quote]
       I think the worst thing about SAO is that it simply just didn't
       know what it wanted to do. It's main goal was to wow us that it
       was a new type of MMO
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