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#Post#: 10398--------------------------------------------------
Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: February 23, 2015, 5:58 pm
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I was thinking of these passages last night. I think I made
some progress; but I was wondering what other people make of
them. When you put them together, what they do mean? One
interpretation of the Mark passage is that the Devil never does
anything to harm his own crew. If that is the case, how does
the passage from Matthew make sense? How could Jesus tell
people who cast out demons that they were workers of iniquity?
Ideas?
Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said,
He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he
out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables,
How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom
cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot
stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he
cannot stand, but hath an end.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of
my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.
#Post#: 10404--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: George
Date: February 24, 2015, 8:23 am
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Could it be that they didn't cast out evil? Jesus never
acknowledged that indeed they had done the things they made
claim to, and that despite these activities they are still
workers of iniquities. Could it be that they had been deceived
to believe they had done all these things?
#Post#: 10410--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: February 24, 2015, 3:17 pm
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--- Quote from: George M. C. Jr. link ---
>
> Could it be that they didn't cast out evil? Jesus never
acknowledged that indeed they had done the things they made
claim to, and that despite these activities they are still
workers of iniquities. Could it be that they had been deceived
to believe they had done all these things?
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think they would dare lie to his face. I think they
did these things and thought it proved something.
Judas was among those Jesus gave power to cast out devils.
Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave
them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
#Post#: 10412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: James
Date: February 24, 2015, 3:31 pm
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You say the devil will not harm his own crew, I am not sure we
have proved that point, but moving on.
In Matt the people who thought they were doing good were
deceived, the fact that they were working iniquity was hidden
from them right up to the time they faced the judgement. In this
way the fact that devils had been cast out had not in fact done
so much harm to the kingdom of satan since by such he had
enslaved many by delusion.
In Mark 3 we have Mark's own understanding of parables that
Jesus told, can we be sure that Mark had a true understanding of
what Jesus was saying, the disciples did not seem at all bright
when it came to the understanding of parables. I have to
confess I don't like this idea that Mark might have got it wrong
since it opens the door to all sorts of re-writing of the bible.
#Post#: 10429--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: February 25, 2015, 11:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: James link ---
>
> You say the devil will not harm his own crew, I am not sure we
have proved that point, but moving on.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I said that was one interpretation; but is it true? Should
we move on without wondering if that's right? It seems to me
evil people are always fighting each other. Hitler and Stalin
come to mind. There's no honor among thieves, no loyalty among
evil men. Do you see evil as a united front or as a dog-eat-dog
proposition?
It seems to me that maybe Jesus was mocking the Dark Side,
saying why would he want to be part of a kingdom that is divided
against itself? Why would he put his trust in evil which
neither honor or loyalty?
--- Quote ---
> In Matt the people who thought they were doing good were
deceived, the fact that they were working iniquity was hidden
from them right up to the time they faced the judgement. In this
way the fact that devils had been cast out had not in fact done
so much harm to the kingdom of satan since by such he had
enslaved many by delusion.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I see your point. Indeed if the people whose demons were
cast out were not immediately filled with the Holy Spirit, more
demons could return and they could be worse off than before.
They could also be enslaved by delusions of self-righteous and
so on, unable to see what was wrong.
--- Quote ---
> In Mark 3 we have Mark's own understanding of parables that
Jesus told, can we be sure that Mark had a true understanding of
what Jesus was saying, the disciples did not seem at all bright
when it came to the understanding of parables. I have to
confess I don't like this idea that Mark might have got it wrong
since it opens the door to all sorts of re-writing of the bible.
--- End Quote ---
I think the parables are deep myself. I think it took time and
the explanations before the disciples understood them. If we
skim through them quickly and think we grasp them, we may be
like the crowds who heard them but never understood the deeper
meanings. Even with the explanations, we may not understand
them.
#Post#: 10437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: George
Date: February 25, 2015, 10:51 pm
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Jesus would only mock the dark side if the kingdom he is a part
of was not divided. So would this then mean that any people's
divided amongst themselves could never truly be part of the
kingdom Jesus associates with himself? What then does this say
for Christendom a religion divided from the beginning and
resulting in the numerous and ever growing denominations?
#Post#: 10478--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 2, 2015, 7:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: George M. C. Jr. link ---
>
> Jesus would only mock the dark side if the kingdom he is a
part of was not divided. So would this then mean that any
people's divided amongst themselves could never truly be part of
the kingdom Jesus associates with himself? What then does this
say for Christendom a religion divided from the beginning and
resulting in the numerous and ever growing denominations?
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry about being tardy, but I haven't feeling like posting a
lot lately.
I'd say Jesus knew Christianity would become divided against
itself rather quickly. There's more than one way to read his
statement about working while it was still day because the night
was coming.
I would say most religions, if they have any validity, have an
outer and inner expression. There is the inner circle and
then the outer group. Most people do not have the time or
ability to be part of the inner circle. Jesus said few would
find that narrow gate. He said that to his inner circle in the
Sermon on the Mount. Coming down from the mountain, he said
when he saw the Gentile that "many" would sit down with Abraham.
The inner group is supposed to know the "mysteries" and also
to guide the outer group.
The problem with Christianity is that,for the most part, it
lost its inner circle rather early. They lacked the inner
group that knew what they were talking about and that steered
the rest of the people. Part of the reason, I think, had to do
with history. When Jews made peace with Rome, they had been
given the right to abstain from offering incense to the Emperor.
That meant when Jews said Christians were not part of Judaism,
Christians were not protected by the exemption of the Jews.
That meant they were martyred.
This led to Christianity not liking Jews much; and it led to
them rejecting almost anything Jewish in favor of other things.
Thus some early Christians celebrated "Easter" on the Jewish
Passover; but that wasn't popular because it was perceived as
being too Jewish. There was a fight over what kind of bread
to use. The Roman church used unleavened bread as the Jews
did; but the Eastern church couldn't tolerate that. Too
Jewish. I believe today they won't buy bread -- it has to be
baked by someone in the church -- to make sure Jews or other
non-Orthodox people aren't playing tricks with them.
Then there was the problem with the "return of Jesus." Many in
the early church did expect the heavens to open and have Jesus
appear on a white horse. Of course, the Jews mocked them
saying, "Well, when is he going to come then?" The message of
the Jews then was, "You have the right God, but the wrong
Messiah." The Christians were afraid the Jews would start
converting Christians in big numbers as time went pass and Jesus
still didn't show up. As time went by, Jesus started getting
portrayed more as "God in Heaven" than King Messiah who return
to earth and set up an earthly kingdom. People still believed
Jesus was going to do that, just as many Jews thought Messiah
would. They also became political and giving up on Jesus'
doing things, started to believe they should use the government
to get things done. Christians went from being a persecuted
group to a group that persecuted others.
I believe the problem started when Christians began hating Jews.
They brought down a curse on themselves. Remember what God
told Abraham?
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse
him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the
earth be blessed.
#Post#: 10479--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: March 3, 2015, 8:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Kerry:
> I was thinking of these passages last night. I think I made
some progress; but I was wondering what other people make of
them. When you put them together, what they do mean? One
interpretation of the Mark passage is that the Devil never does
anything to harm his own crew. If that is the case, how does
the passage from Matthew make sense? How could Jesus tell
people who cast out demons that they were workers of iniquity?
>
> Ideas?
>
> Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said,
He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he
out devils.
> 23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in
parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
> 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom
cannot stand.
> 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot
stand.
> 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he
cannot stand, but hath an end.
>
> Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven.
> 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.
--- End Quote ---
Satan cannot cast out satan, but he can hurt him. By the carnal
nature in ourselves we cannot toss aside all of our carnal
nature even though different elements of our own carnality will
fight against each other. The only One able to cast out satan
(out of us) is the God in us if He is allowed to work.
God gave us dominion over certain things in ourselves but to me
that means the power to choose, not the power to overcome. The
power to overcome is God's. God gave us the authority to work
our own works (or to choose to try going that way) or choose to
allow God to work His works in us. If we go it alone, we can
hurt ourselves and others, but we cannot completely kill the
'old man' or the beasts that dwell in us. God can, but we have
to give Him permission to work in us.
#Post#: 10480--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 3, 2015, 2:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
> Satan cannot cast out satan, but he can hurt him. By the
carnal nature in ourselves we cannot toss aside all of our
carnal nature even though different elements of our own
carnality will fight against each other. The only One able to
cast out satan (out of us) is the God in us if He is allowed to
work.
--- End Quote ---
Have you ever heard of the potential for negative effects in
hynotherapy? My attention was first drawn to this problem by
something L. Ron Hubbard wrote about it. He was very opposed
to using hypnosis. He said if you went to get hypnotized for
one problem, that problem might appear to disappear but the
cause of the problem and the mental energy behind the problem
would often shift to other things. For example, you might stop
smoking but then find you started getting panic attacks. I
found this list online
HTML http://www.brooksidecenter.com/possible_dangers_and_complicatio.htm:<br
/>
•anergia and fatigue •antisocial acting out •anxiety, panic
attacks •attention deficit •body/self-image distortions
•comprehension/concentration loss •confusion •coping skills,
impaired •decompensation, psychotic-like delusional thinking
•depersonalization •depression •de-realization •dizziness
•dreams •drowsiness, excessive sleep •fainting •fear of
fearfulness •guilt •headache •histrionic reactions •identity
crisis •insomnia •irritability •medical emergencies •memory
impaired, distorted •misunderstood suggestion •nausea, vomiting
•obsessive ruminations •over dependency •personality change
•phobic aversion •physical discomfort, injury •psychomotor
retardation •psychosis •regressed behaviors •sexual acting out
•sexual dysfunction •somatization •spontaneous trance
•stiffness, arm or neck •stress, lowered threshold •stupor
•symptom substitution •tactile hallucinations •traumatic recall
•tremors •weeping, uncontrolled
Re: "different elements of our own carnality will fight against
each other."
I'd say ultimately this fighting leads to death. Evil seems
very much like a kingdom divided against itself to me. Many
attempts to address evil is like rearranging the chairs on the
Titantic. Things are out of control, and no one is making an
effective and informed effect to take control.
--- Quote ---
> God gave us dominion over certain things in ourselves but to
me that means the power to choose, not the power to overcome.
The power to overcome is God's.
--- End Quote ---
Ultimately all power is derived from God. Are there rules that
govern this? I think so. It would be somewhat disappointing
thing to find that the ability to choose was unconnected to the
ability to get results.
There is a logical problem with your position too. What happens
when we choose evil? Where does the power to get negative
results come from? It seems to me that "dominion" would not
be the correct word to use if we lacked the power to get
results.
The problem is obscured by past failures when we tried to do
things and failed. I don't have all the answers; but my guess
is that's one reason I had my share of failures. Tackling a
problem half-heartedly (with the double mind) is another reason
for failure.
Then there is the major problem of abusing our power and
believing that the solution to our problems involves making
decisions for other people. The person given to this is really
opposing the Law of Free Will; and it's guaranteed that he will
fail in the end. His manipulations may appear to be
succeeding spectacularly for a while; but in the end, you can't
oppose the whole universe and win. You can't be God yourself
and dictate to others what they will do. Indeed God Himself
does not attempt to do that -- so why, I ask, would people
believe they could do it?
I believe that God gave us power along with free will. I'll be
the first to admit however it often doesn't look that way; but I
believe it is that way. We should remember we are often our
own worst enemies -- and the heart can be very deceptive --
desperately wicked at times even. All kinds of excuses can be
made.
I believe every time we choose good, it increases the God-given
Power in us to do more good. This follows the rule -- and I
do believe it is a rule or law of the universe -- that if we are
faithful with what God has already given us, He rewards us by
trusting us with more. I don't think God thinks about this --
it's a law we can depend on.
Similarly every time we choose evil, we lose some of the Divine
Power we have been given and then have to resort to deceit and
trickery ourselves to try to manipulate others. Pharaoh
is a good example of this. He was the proper authority in
Egypt, with that authority being derived from God. He was
unfaithful however. For one thing, he refused to allow Israel
religious freedom. It was not enough that he abused his
earthly power, he also wanted to usurp the role of God. He
found his power dwindling and dwindling until he was finally
content to go to certain death rather than alter course and
genuinely repent.
Did God harden his heart, or did he harden it himself? Exodus
has it both ways. I think either description can be true
depending on the perspective. God's Law was at work. God was
not making decisions to harden his heart every time Pharaoh
refused to repent. It's just the way the world works.
I'd say God created gravity. What we do with it is our
decision. If a man jumps off a building and kill himself, we
could say God killed him since it was His Law which did it. We
could also say he killed himself.
--- Quote ---
> God gave us the authority to work our own works (or to choose
to try going that way) or choose to allow God to work His works
in us. If we go it alone, we can hurt ourselves and others, but
we cannot completely kill the 'old man' or the beasts that dwell
in us. God can, but we have to give Him permission to work in
us.
--- End Quote ---
The choice to go it alone is choosing opposition to others and
opposition to God and His Law. One cannot break the Law of Love
and thrive for long.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world:
and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our
faith.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit
with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down
with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with
fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and
over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his
name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
The Christian is expected to mature and overcome. Certainly
at first, it would not be wise or safe to entrust him with too
much power. He might abuse it and then be worse off for having
been given too much. Certainly too, the person who seeks power
for the sake of power is unfit to have it. The person who
accepts power because he loves is on the correct path. I
believe the greatest forces in the universe will assist such a
person. Love, however, does not always mean fixing everyone
else. Love must accept the free will decisions of others. The
best way to lose whatever power you have yourself is to try to
subvert others by usurping their free will and ability to do as
they please.
I believe in two types of "will." First there is the True Will
of the person. I put that in capitals since I think there is
something of the Divine in it. It is impossible for two people
to fight if both are acting on their True Wills. If we see
people fighting, it means that either one or both of the
fighting parties is operating on the false will -- the satanic
will. If both are operating on the satanic will, the case does
not make it into God's Court for a decision. If one side is
completely innocent, that side can appeal to God and get a
decision. Evil or the satanic can be removed in such cases,
just as Pharaoh was brought down by Moses. Moses' motive was
first of all religious freedom for his people, then complete
freedom for them and also better conditions for the Egyptians
who were also oppressed by bad government -- with the choice
being given to the Egyptians that they could leave Egypt and
become part of Israel.
I am unmoved by the pleas that the first born sons were
innocent. The first born males acted as priests; and the entire
Egyptian spiritual hierarchy was degraded. I believe the
children were worse than their parents. To allow such an evil
hierarchy in place would have been wrong. Thus when that
hierarchy broke the Law of Free Will, it could be removed.
It interests me too how sometimes Jesus asked people if they
wanted to be made whole. Why did he do this some of the time
and not at other times? I believe he was not going to heal
anyone or exorcise anyone if that person was double-minded. If
he perceived they were not double-minded, he could proceed
without asking;but if they were being double-minded, he put the
question to them to force them to decide.
Each person can make his own observations and test the following
idea for himself. The Christian who thinks he can go around
battling evil on his own, casting out demons without first
asking if they really want rid of them, will find himself
falling into spiritual insanity himself. The phrase
"spiritual warfare" always gets my attention since it seems to
be used so often by naive people. I wonder if they know what
they're doing or if they are getting carried away by the drama
or by pride.
Some day if I have more time, I may research exorcisms in the
Catholic Church. I've been told they have a short life
expectancy. That could easily be true if they're violating the
Law of Free Will, trying to cast demons when they shouldn't be.
My opinion is that most so-called demons know about the Law of
Free Will and are careful not to break it. I'd say the
exorcists who proceed to cast out demons (or try) without taking
care to respect the free will of others is falling into the
satanic himself.
#Post#: 10482--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can evil cast out evil?
DIR By: George
Date: March 3, 2015, 11:13 pm
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After much consideration of the question I have come to the
conclusion, I think evil cannot cast out evil for the purpose of
good. Evil can however cast out evil in order to create an even
greater evil. My question is then does love cast out evil? I am
in no way referring to exorcism, I am not speaking to that
extreme. Rather in the day to day walk can love cast out evil?
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