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#Post#: 10386--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Kerry Date: February 22, 2015, 3:14 pm
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=987.msg10384#msg10384
date=1424636290]
Likewise for me but my rejection of original, and affirmation of
new, didn't extend to a change over from Christianity to
Judaism, Hinduism, Buddism, etc.
And I retained a few things such as Christ's sacrificial death.
[/quote]Oh, I once asked myself what I knew that was of any
account. I had studied many things; but my honest answer was I
didn't know even one thing that really mattered. When I
figured that out, that's when things started to take off for me.
Believe it or not, if something is really true, it will
remain true even if we doubt it. It's not going to become false
or go away if we question it.
I read an article once on a Hindu site about the Crucifixion of
Jesus. The author understood it quite well, I thought. Then
there are the surprising similarities of the Hindu creation
account and of Genesis.
Then there is the Muslim poet who wrote the poem about the
Crucifixion. Poor man, for his "heresy," his fellow Muslims
crucified him too.
You also might be pleasantly surprised by some of the things the
Dalai Lama said about Jesus. I would also recommend you read
about Gautama sitting under the bo tree. It has many of the same
messages I find in the Bible.
I was almost flabbergasted when I read that an American Indian
tribe said that Crow went down into the ocean and brought the
earth up out of it. Sure it's true, but how did they know it?
Or are you one of those people who think "we" are special
because we're Christians? We Christians may be today's
version of the Jews of Jesus' day who thought they were
special. It may be hard for us to enter the kingdom while
easier for others. To whom much is given, much is required.
Ddo remember that Jesus, talking to his inner circle, said how
hard it was to find that narrow gate. Few would find it, he
said, when talking to the "special" people. Coming down from
the mountain, he met a Gentile and said many would sit down with
Abraham in the kingdom.
So there you have it. Maybe the Hindus and Buddhists will enter
the kingdom before many Christians. Or do you think they must
accept your views about the atonement in order to be saved?
Goodness, I hope you don't believe that. You may be getting
close to Calvinism if you do. God loves us and gave us the
Bible but He doesn't care about these other people?
We will be judged by our deeds, Mike. That's what the Bible
says. If someone is doing good deeds, then I say surely God is
at work in them. It has to be so. A bad tree doesn't bear
good fruit. If people who never heard of Jesus by the Bible or
other means are heeding their consciences, they are being
obedient to the Light given to them by Jesus who lights everyone
who comes into this world.
#Post#: 10387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Mike Date: February 22, 2015, 4:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Believe it or not Kerry but I agree with much of what you say.
No way can I be sure that my 'take' is the only way for mankind.
But, in the meantime, I take some satisfaction from piecing
together a 'Christian' understanding, based mainly on such Bible
verses and passages that seem to me to connect to comprise 'my
take' (ignoring such verses and passages that don't 'fit').
That's about the top and bottom of 'me'.
#Post#: 10396--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Kerry Date: February 23, 2015, 5:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=987.msg10387#msg10387
date=1424643439]
Believe it or not Kerry but I agree with much of what you say.
No way can I be sure that my 'take' is the only way for mankind.
But, in the meantime, I take some satisfaction from piecing
together a 'Christian' understanding, based mainly on such Bible
verses and passages that seem to me to connect to comprise 'my
take' (ignoring such verses and passages that don't 'fit').
That's about the top and bottom of 'me'.
[/quote]At least you are aware of what you're doing. It seems
to me that many people don't admit they're ignoring some verses
that don't fit their ideas.
How useful is the Bible to you then? Although I have doubts
about some passages in the Bible, I try hard not to reject a
passage just because it doesn't fit my ideas. What if I'm
wrong and I reject it? Then I'm not treating the Bible as a
book that could correct me.
I'd say some of my best insights came from contemplating what
seemed to be contradictions in the Bible. How could both these
passages be right? When I realize how I misinterpreted a
passage, I have my answer. Last night, I was thinking of two
passages since they were continuing to bother me. I may start a
thread about them.
If passages appear to contradict each other, maybe one passage
is wrong. Maybe someone wrote something wrong. It could also
be that I'm interpreting one of them wrong. If I reject one
prematurely while misunderstanding the other one, then I'm not
allowing the scriptures to correct me. I think the real
problem is when we tell ourselves we believe 100% of the Bible
is true but then aren't honest with ourselves and don't admit
that we are ignoring some passages.
#Post#: 10402--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Mike Date: February 23, 2015, 11:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Kerry, my thoughts overnight seem to be on the question of
'balance' so I'll bring them to what you have said in this
thread in respect of the Bible.
The way I look at it is that if the Bible is intended by God as
being the main source from which he 'speaks' into the hearts of
those who have access to Bibles (and I believe that to be the
case) then, because he has to use it to speak to such a
massively diverse 'audience' (for want of a better word)
stretching worldwide, and for thousands of years, then not every
part can be relative to every reader.
Therefore God will 'speak' to each different reader from the
parts of the Bible that suit the circumstances of each reader.
Those who believe that every single word of the Bible is
suitable and intended for them are therefore doomed to becoming
'Bible bashing' fundamentalists at odds with each other.
I just hope that doesn't offend too many readers.
#Post#: 10430--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Kerry Date: February 25, 2015, 12:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=987.msg10402#msg10402
date=1424755267]
Hi Kerry, my thoughts overnight seem to be on the question of
'balance' so I'll bring them to what you have said in this
thread in respect of the Bible.
The way I look at it is that if the Bible is intended by God as
being the main source from which he 'speaks' into the hearts of
those who have access to Bibles (and I believe that to be the
case) then, because he has to use it to speak to such a
massively diverse 'audience' (for want of a better word)
stretching worldwide, and for thousands of years, then not every
part can be relative to every reader.
Therefore God will 'speak' to each different reader from the
parts of the Bible that suit the circumstances of each
reader.[/quote]Or is it the hearts of the individuals that block
out some passage while allow other parts in?
For example, it is said that when the trumpet waxed loud and
strong, the entire Spiritual Law -- the Law of Light -- was
spoken but Israel understood only the Decalogue. Those things
they could understand but the other things were not
comprehended. Instead of hearing the intelligence in the Voice
of God, they heard a loud sound that frightened them.
Here is my problem. Jesus said that all the Law of Moses could
be summed up by the two great commandments. That means all the
Law and the Prophets are somehow about Love. If I read a
passage and can't see the Love in it, what should I do? I
don't base my beliefs on those passages. If they're authentic
passages and I can't see the Love in them, I don't understand
them. On the other hand, they could be forged passages and I
might never be able to understand them. But passages I don't
understand bother me. Is there something about me that is not
loving and that is blocking me from seeing the truth?
[quote]Those who believe that every single word of the Bible is
suitable and intended for them are therefore doomed to becoming
'Bible bashing' fundamentalists at odds with each other.
I just hope that doesn't offend too many readers.[/quote]My
objection to some people interpret the Bible is how they often
ignore the context. They want to make a passage relevant to
them or to get it to boost one of their beliefs; and they can
overlook the context entirely. Tithing comes to mind. It
seems clear that some people have no idea what the Old
Testament concept of tithing was; but they'll pull out passages
to support their idea about tithing. Yet on other subjects,
they'll tell you what the Old Testament says is irrelevant.
What they seem to be doing is interpreting the Bible in a way
that pleases them personally. It's as if the Bible is about
what they want it to mean.
#Post#: 10438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Mike Date: February 26, 2015, 3:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=987.msg10372#msg10372
date=1424524678]
Did you know the word "atonement" was coined in the early 16th
Century? The concept hadn't existed before then.
HTML http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atonement
1505-15; from phrase at one in harmony + -ment, as translation
of Medieval Latin adūnāmentum; compare Middle English
onement unity
Most of the variations in belief seem absent from Judaism and
Catholicism. How foundational can it be then?
[/quote]
Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)....copied from Wikipedia
The Holy of Holies was entered once a year by the High Priest on
the Day of Atonement, to sprinkle the blood of sacrificial
animals (a bull offered as atonement for the Priest and his
household, and a goat offered as atonement for the people) and
offer incense upon the Ark of the Covenant and the mercy seat
which sat on top of the ark in the First Temple (the Second
Temple had no ark and the blood was sprinkled where the Ark
would have been and the incense was left on the Foundation
Stone). The animal was sacrificed on the Brazen Altar and the
blood was carried into the most holy place. The golden censers
were also found in the Most Holy Place.
Yom Kippur (/jɔːm ˈkɪpər, joʊm,
jɒm/;[1] Hebrew: יוֹם
כִּפּוּר, IPA:
[ˈjom kiˈpuʁ], or יום
הכיפורים), also
known as Day of Atonement, is the holiest day of the year for
the Jewish people.[2] Its central themes are atonement and
repentance. Jewish people traditionally observe this holy day
with an approximate 25-hour period of fasting and intensive
prayer, often spending most of the day insynagogue services.
From the book of Hebrews re our New Covenant in Christ.
This man (Jesus), because he continueth ever, hath an
unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them
to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever
liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest
became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from
sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not
daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for
his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once,
when he offered up himself.
When Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according
to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with
water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the
book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the
testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he
sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of
the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with
blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the
heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things
themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not
entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the
figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in
the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself
often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every
year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered
since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of
the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of
himself.
#Post#: 10439--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Kerry Date: February 26, 2015, 5:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=987.msg10438#msg10438
date=1424944222]
Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)....copied from Wikipedia
The Holy of Holies was entered once a year by the High Priest on
the Day of Atonement, to sprinkle the blood of sacrificial
animals (a bull offered as atonement for the Priest and his
household, and a goat offered as atonement for the people) and
offer incense upon the Ark of the Covenant and the mercy seat
which sat on top of the ark in the First Temple (the Second
Temple had no ark and the blood was sprinkled where the Ark
would have been and the incense was left on the Foundation
Stone). The animal was sacrificed on the Brazen Altar and the
blood was carried into the most holy place. The golden censers
were also found in the Most Holy Place.
Yom Kippur (/jɔːm ˈkɪpər, joʊm,
jɒm/;[1] Hebrew: יוֹם
כִּפּוּר, IPA:
[ˈjom kiˈpuʁ], or יום
הכיפורים), also
known as Day of Atonement, is the holiest day of the year for
the Jewish people.[2] Its central themes are atonement and
repentance. Jewish people traditionally observe this holy day
with an approximate 25-hour period of fasting and intensive
prayer, often spending most of the day insynagogue
services.[/quote]
The word in Hebrew is kaphar. The first time it's used is
about pitch:
Gen 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make
in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
It means to "cover."
[quote]From the book of Hebrews re our New Covenant in Christ.
This man (Jesus), because he continueth ever, hath an
unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them
to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever
liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest
became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from
sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not
daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for
his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once,
when he offered up himself.
When Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according
to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with
water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the
book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the
testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he
sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of
the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with
blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. [/quote]
This contradicts the Old Testament. I suspect this book was
written originally in Hebrew and translated into Greek; and now
we lack the original. We run into other contradictions in the
book of Hebrews. For example, what was originally kept inside
the Ark? I find it difficult to believe that a literate Jew
could have made that mistake. The book is astonishing,
containing at times the most enlightening of passages and at
other times passages which imply the author was not even a Jew.
1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight
in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of
the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to
hearken than the fat of rams.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken
and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices
unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of
rams, and the fat fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of
bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isaiah said the sacrifices of unrepentant sinners are
worthless.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they
are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes
from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your
hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings
from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge
the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though
your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though
they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
How could such people be fixed by killing animals?
[quote]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in
the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly
things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ
is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are
the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear
in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer
himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place
every year with blood of others; For then must he often have
suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the
end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the
sacrifice of himself.[/quote]
Now this section seems accurate to me, most likely part of the
authentic book. Note that the author is not saying the Blood of
Christ is fixing earthly sins but rather purifying the patterns
of things in Heaven. This is not what most Protestants teach
about their earthly sins being "covered by the Blood." Nor can
most Protestants advance a theory about how Jesus "suffered
since the foundation of the world."
I also do not think we should read this passage to justify human
sacrifice as a "better sacrifice."
The passage in Hebrews may confuse readers too if they believe
that the vessels Moses sprinkled with blood had sinned somehow
and needed their sins remitted. What sins were being remitted
by doing that? I believe sins were being remitted, but it
wasn't because the vessels had sinned.
You might be interested in knowing that Hinduism teaches
HTML http://santhigiri.com/karma/pages/karma.htm
that the guru can
take on the karma of his followers.
You must remember that the Law of Cause and Effect is
inviolable, so you must acquire a higher degree of control over
thought, control over speech and control over action, because
you are being constantly judged by every action, word and
thought that you generate. Tolerance, endurance, humbleness,
love, harmony, faith, surrender and devotion towards God or to a
fully realized Guru, should be present in you all time; you must
always desire to be one with God or with a fully realized Guru.
In your mind, the image of God or of that Guru, should be
present at all time. "Find God. That is the only purpose in
life" (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, great Indian sage,
1836-1886).
A fully realized Guru can remove part of your bad karma,
transferring those evil energies to the Almighty, so in this
way, karma is extinguished. It is very important to understand
that a real Guru should be atmajnani -one who can see the
intricacies of your soul and its past, present and future, in
order to give the correct guidance towards your spiritual
liberation. He should be able to guide his followers in their
material, emotional and spiritual life so as to lead them to the
full spiritual liberation.
One need not be a "fully realized Guru" to take on the karma of
others. Paul says we should do it and even calls it the "law of
Christ."
Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the
law of Christ.
Yet in the end, Paul is right when he seems to contradict
himself later:
Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
This is also the reason I said the Cross of Jesus is not going
to help us unless we are also willing to take up our own
crosses. While Jesus is willing to bear our burdens,
lightening the load, he does not do this eternally. He does it
so can become strong enough to begin tackling them ourselves and
even beginning to bear the burdens of others also.
#Post#: 10440--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Mike Date: February 26, 2015, 6:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Maybe the entire Old Testament is a Jewish legendary fabrication
and the entire New Testament is a Catholic one.
Maybe Buddism is all that can be relied upon.
Maybe the Abe Boullan is the only one to have seen the light.
Maybe the Temple of Set is the only true church.
Maybe anything so long as it isn't Christianity in any of the
forms to emerge since the Reformation (except of course the
Reformed Church of Christ ::)).
The topic title seems more and more apt the more we debunk and
explain away every religion except our own.
[center]I expect we've all got it somewhat
wrong
HTML http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo29/pigletmph/zadiffgrouphug.gifincluding<br
/>(or even 'especially') me.[/center]
[center] :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\
:'([/center]
#Post#: 10445--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Kerry Date: February 26, 2015, 10:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=987.msg10440#msg10440
date=1424952202]
Maybe the entire Old Testament is a Jewish legendary fabrication
and the entire New Testament is a Catholic one.[/quote]There are
days when I think some have reduced the Old Testament to a
series of "Jewish fables." Perhaps we could also say the New
Testament has been reduced to Catholic or Protestant fables. I
can only repeat that if I don't see the Love in a passage, I say
to myself I don't understand it -- it's either I'm failing to
understand it or it's a forgery. Does it matter? Not much to
me. You could add almost anything to the Bible and it would not
injure me since it wouldn't affect me unless I could see the
Love in it.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply,
that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men,
that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are
defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and
conscience is defiled.
Men may add poison to the Truth of God. So what? If our
hearts are pure:
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any
deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on
the sick, and they shall recover.
[quote]Maybe Buddism is all that can be relied upon.
Maybe the Abe Boullan is the only one to have seen the light.
Maybe the Temple of Set is the only true church.
Maybe anything so long as it isn't Christianity in any of the
forms to emerge since the Reformation (except of course the
Reformed Church of Christ ::)).[/quote]
I frown at innovations when men stand up and claim to be
prophets with "new" messages from God. If something is God's
Truth, it's always been His Truth. God's Truth does not change.
When someone believes he has been favored by God with new
truths that no one else before was told, I imagine that man is
being carried away by pride or his own fancies. It seems
highly improbable to me that an idea that is a mere few hundred
years old is part of God's Truth. I would fear I was
falling into conceit if I believed I was so special that God has
revealed something to me that He never did before.
What about other religions? I could complain for hours about
the misconceptions that run rampant in Hinduism, Islam, and to a
lesser degree in Buddhism. But I will say this: He who
understands his own religion correctly will be able to perceive
the same truths in other religions. The person who
misunderstands his own religion is almost certain to
misunderstand others' religion. Understand one religion, and
then the others will begin to make sense too.
I know of no religion that was not changed by its followers
after the death of the founder. Popularized forms get promoted
by unscrupulous men; and the masses follow them like lemmings.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned
every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the
iniquity of us all.
Let me try to stop you before you say, "Aha! There is a verse
that teaches the atonement." If that is about only Jesus, there
is lots of 'splainin' to do.
[quote]The topic title seems more and more apt the more we
debunk and explain away every religion except our own.
I expect we've all got it somewhat wrong including (or even
'especially') me.[/quote]The best approach is always to
recognize we may be in error ourselves. It is not safe to take
the course of believing "I am always right."
What does it profit us to see the errors (real or imagined) in
the religion of others? So we can see ourselves as
Christians who charitably point out their errors? There is
some penetrating psychology in Jesus' remark:
Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy
brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own
eye?
When I see Christians who seem eager to run down other
religions, it does not surprise me when I see how they don't
know that much about their own religion. Some even know little
about the Bible while fancying they are experts on other
religions. It would be comical if it were not so sad.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=987.msg10348#msg10348
date=1424292195]
All around me, in various Christian forums, I see signs of
mental instability from those who take too seriously what they
and others post.
Shall God have them in pity, or in derision?
[/quote]Perhaps they already have their reward. Anyone who
takes himself too seriously is apt to go off the rails mentally.
He's apt to view anyone who disagrees with him as a threat,
thus paranoia becomes a real possibility. He is apt to resort to
anger at ideas that threaten his perception that he knows it
all. Did you see the thread about how one scientific study
suggests religion can shrink the brain? We may know more if
more studies are done; but my guess is that religion probably
can affect the brain and mental health.
HTML http://lovegodonly.createaforum.com/science/the-incredible-shrinking-brain/
#Post#: 10446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Madness of the mind.
By: Mike Date: February 26, 2015, 11:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Very good response Kerry considering the provocation within
mine.
I guess that few can see prejudice in their own PoV (or am I
just looking at me?)
Maybe the most 'religious' man is the one with no firm religion.
I wish that I could sit face to face with you (at least I think
I do ;)).
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