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       #Post#: 10278--------------------------------------------------
       Notes on Holland's Story
       By: Kerry Date: February 1, 2015, 3:28 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I suppose you  know your meeting is quite close to the FBI
       building. One detail may be  off a little, not that it really
       matters.  (I am such a complainer.)  The Roosevelt Memorial is
       open 24 hours a day if you want to go there; but  there are park
       rangers there  quite late.  If it was just getting dark, there'd
       be the danger of running into some park rangers.   If you have
       park personnel as part of the plot, that could be interesting
       considering how many people vanish -- simply vanish -- in US
       parks.  Conspiracy theorists come up with all sorts of theories;
       but who really knows?  Some show up dead missing shoes or items
       of clothing; some show up and can't remember what happened; and
       some just disappear.
       I think lots of secret meetings happen in Chinese restaurants,
       as improbable as that may sound.  I don't know how secure they
       are though.  If you're the agency doing the spying, it wouldn't
       be a problem.
       I was in one Chinese restaurant one afternoon when there were
       only a few people in it -- and this was before the invention of
       cameras that can take pictures in low light -- and there were
       some flashes of  light, very much like a camera flash.  It had
       to be a camera flash; but it wasn't coming from anyone sitting
       at the tables.  The only thing I could figure was that a camera
       and a flash was in one of the air ducts that were close to the
       top of the wall.  What I couldn't understand though is why they
       use a flash since that would give it away to people they were
       being spied on.  I'm still not sure what those flashes were.   I
       never saw them at night.
       Another experience was even stranger.  I wasn't in the Chinese
       restaurant itself but next door.   My friend could not find the
       particular phonograph needle she needed in several  stores.  Not
       in any of the stores you would go to first.  It was an oddball
       needle, I guess outdated so much that stores didn't carry it.
       We finally wound up at this little store next to a Chinese
       restaurant.   The scene was incredible when we walked in.  There
       was no merchadise to be seen anywhere in the store.  There were
       two rooms, and there was  a ladder in the first room under a big
       light and a group of about five men around the ladder talking.
       As soon as they spotted us, they all stopped talking.  Very
       strange.    One man came up and asked us if he could help us;
       and my friend asked if this was a store and told him what she
       was looking for. He said it was a store, and let him check to
       see if they had that particular needle.
       So we went with him  to the back room and still no merchandise
       visible; but he went over to a wall and pulled a drawer out of
       the wall.  The wall had several drawers like that.   They had
       the needle.  He found it, she paid for it and we left.    My
       theory is they were really in that store to spy on people at the
       Chinese restaurant.   When I checked, it was very convenient too
       if someone wanted to take a bus from the CiA building in
       Virginia -- right on the same bus line.
       Another strange location right outside of DC is the neighborhood
       at the end of Mass Ave -- between Mass Ave and MacArthur Blvd.
       It's a lovely neighborhood.   When they designed it, they cut as
       few trees as possible, so the whole neighborhood has tons of
       trees.  Not much grass but lots of trees.  The land rises
       sharply there with MacArthur Blvd snaking around below this
       neighborhood.   CIA headquarters is across the river.  I only
       was up there maybe two times since it's not a neighborhood you'd
       use to get anywhere.   So I never checked this out; but I was
       told to check it out.  My friend told me to check for the
       antennas up there, all pointed at Langley.
       #Post#: 10279--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: HOLLAND Date: February 1, 2015, 7:35 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Kerry, you started this thread before I got to it.  I should
       comment now on Post #2.
       The Star People are psionics, they have the Primus Quartus
       abilities of telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation and
       paracognition.  The human governments of Earth employ mentalists
       who are called cowls, who have telepathic and sometimes some
       telekinetic abilites.  Cowls are called such because for many
       centuries men and women have worn garments with hoods, many
       times called cowls.  Aprators are those humans who have anti-psi
       damper abilities, they can shut down psionic activity to various
       distances around them.  Norms are humans who lack any psionic,
       mentalist or aprator ability or who have apratorial ability but
       are not consciously aware of their ability.
       [quote author=Kerry link=topic=979.msg10278#msg10278
       date=1422826092]
       I suppose you  know your meeting is quite close to the FBI
       building. One detail may be  off a little, not that it really
       matters.  (I am such a complainer.)  The Roosevelt Memorial is
       open 24 hours a day if you want to go there; but  there are park
       rangers there  quite late.  If it was just getting dark, there'd
       be the danger of running into some park rangers.   If you have
       park personnel as part of the plot, that could be interesting
       considering how many people vanish -- simply vanish -- in US
       parks.  Conspiracy theorists come up with all sorts of theories;
       but who really knows?  Some show up dead missing shoes or items
       of clothing; some show up and can't remember what happened; and
       some just disappear. [/quote]
       The clandestine meeting was held outside of the Franklin
       Roosevelt Memorial quite deliberately for certain reasons.  To
       meet in a totally vacant area sometimes does invite interest the
       interest of other security agencies if government employees are
       involved.   That degree of security was not intended and this
       meeting was coordinated with the FBI.   The meeting was intended
       to be brief and so the passing of the attache, quickly done, in
       an area where there was poor visibility, would not be observed
       by any continous observers who could possibly be parked on Ohio
       Drive SW.  The Park Rangers would also provide security for the
       meeting, in the normal course of their duties, and because of
       it, a distraction to any possible observers.
       [quote]I think lots of secret meetings happen in Chinese
       restaurants, as improbable as that may sound.  I don't know how
       secure they are though.  If you're the agency doing the spying,
       it wouldn't be a problem.
       I was in one Chinese restaurant one afternoon when there were
       only a few people in it -- and this was before the invention of
       cameras that can take pictures in low light -- and there were
       some flashes of  light, very much like a camera flash.  It had
       to be a camera flash; but it wasn't coming from anyone sitting
       at the tables.  The only thing I could figure was that a camera
       and a flash was in one of the air ducts that were close to the
       top of the wall.  What I couldn't understand though is why they
       use a flash since that would give it away to people they were
       being spied on.  I'm still not sure what those flashes were.   I
       never saw them at night.
       Another experience was even stranger.  I wasn't in the Chinese
       restaurant itself but next door.   My friend could not find the
       particular phonograph needle she needed in several  stores.  Not
       in any of the stores you would go to first.  It was an oddball
       needle, I guess outdated so much that stores didn't carry it.
       We finally wound up at this little store next to a Chinese
       restaurant.   The scene was incredible when we walked in.  There
       was no merchadise to be seen anywhere in the store.  There were
       two rooms, and there was  a ladder in the first room under a big
       light and a group of about five men around the ladder talking.
       As soon as they spotted us, they all stopped talking.  Very
       strange.    One man came up and asked us if he could help us;
       and my friend asked if this was a store and told him what she
       was looking for. He said it was a store, and let him check to
       see if they had that particular needle.
       So we went with him  to the back room and still no merchandise
       visible; but he went over to a wall and pulled a drawer out of
       the wall.  The wall had several drawers like that.   They had
       the needle.  He found it, she paid for it and we left.    My
       theory is they were really in that store to spy on people at the
       Chinese restaurant.   When I checked, it was very convenient too
       if someone wanted to take a bus from the CiA building in
       Virginia -- right on the same bus line.
       Another strange location right outside of DC is the neighborhood
       at the end of Mass Ave -- between Mass Ave and MacArthur Blvd.
       It's a lovely neighborhood.   When they designed it, they cut as
       few trees as possible, so the whole neighborhood has tons of
       trees.  Not much grass but lots of trees.  The land rises
       sharply there with MacArthur Blvd snaking around below this
       neighborhood.   CIA headquarters is across the river.  I only
       was up there maybe two times since it's not a neighborhood you'd
       use to get anywhere.   So I never checked this out; but I was
       told to check it out.  My friend told me to check for the
       antennas up there, all pointed at Langley.  [/quote]
       I suppose it is possible in these things, Kerry.  One can
       speculate as to anti-espionage operations done by the FBI in
       respect to foreign agents operating within the United States.
       It is always possible that one can see something that could be
       useful to the FBI.  In which case it should be reported.  Some
       cases, however odd to an observer might have intelligence
       usefulness.
       For the purposes of the story, The River of No Return, the
       anti-psi agencies workings against the Star People would not
       follow along the work of human agencies.  They seek to detect
       psi activity and respond accordingly.  That won't be the subject
       of this story.  Human governments and the Star People have
       reached a number of International accords which have limited
       both psionic and anti-psionic activity to a peacetime level.
       The story takes place in that context.
       #Post#: 10361--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: HOLLAND Date: February 20, 2015, 7:03 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       There is a moment in the story, The River of No Return, Place of
       Bones, where Detective Gant is either observing or thinking at
       the place that the young murder victim, Lindy Greene had been
       buried:
       [quote]There was a stench of decay in the place.  The dead
       leaves and the fetid smell of the rotted bark or timber seemed
       to bring out sadness of the place, the gloom.  Gant abruptly
       decided to quit this.  Too much gloom.  He went up the bank and
       headed back to his car.
       The rain picked up again going from a faint, light sprinkling to
       a steadier, harder rain.  It seemed to symbolize a kind of
       divine sadness or weeping over the death and burial of  the
       young girl.  Was it an omen or sign from God?  Gant wondered.
       Or was it a delusion, a venturing towards hope in a situation
       that wasn’t much open to hope?  But, again there is always hope
       apart from any sign of it . . .[/quote]
       I have attended a number of funerals of people whom others have
       said that any accompanying rain had been, somehow, a divine
       indication of God's sadness for the death of the person.  This
       subject about omens and/or signs from God in nature.  Is there
       any credence for such views in the modern age or could it be
       simply considered delusion?  What are your thoughts?
       #Post#: 10368--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: Kerry Date: February 20, 2015, 7:08 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I can't remember a funeral when it rained, but then I haven't
       been to many funerals.   I've seen it in  movies though.
       Hard to say though what I'd think if it rained.  I probably
       wouldn't take it as a sign.  We humans are apt to project a lot
       so I might.   I might interpret it as a blessing.  While rain
       can be seen as melancholic,  it is still a blessing that brings
       new life in the future.
       Even decay can be seen as a good thing.  What would we do if
       leaves fell and did not decay?   What would we do if the bodies
       of animals didn't decay?   The soil would be depleted if there
       was no way for the elements that sustain life to return to the
       soil.   Until the whole earth is perfected, death seems
       necessary.  What is imperfect decays and get new life.
       #Post#: 10389--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: HOLLAND Date: February 22, 2015, 9:11 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       We certainly, Kerry, do project meaning into things.  I
       wonder,though, how much might be not based upon a projection of
       meaning, or wish-fulfillment, but rather a symbolical
       presentation of divine sentiment.  Life and death are certainly
       intertwined.  God, the Creater, in the Book of Job, speaks out
       of the Whirlwind, a symbol of destruction.  It all seems that
       projection and wish, as well as the reality behind it all seems
       to point to a totality that encompasses all that we know . . .
       Peace be with you!
       #Post#: 10537--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: HOLLAND Date: March 14, 2015, 9:51 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I thought I would note that at this time in the story, with the
       entering of Clive Edgar Fox, I am introducing the first
       fictional character that I created back when I was thirteen
       years old, in 1965.  It has brought up some odd feelings, ghosts
       of the past, when LBJ was in the White House and the Vietnam War
       was raging.  I had read, at the time, my first Nero Wolfe
       novels, Gambit and And To Be A Villain, and was inspired by Rex
       Stout's fictional creation.  This character only existed in
       story drafts and outlines.
       Clive Edgar Fox is a hybrid creation, a personage inspired by
       Rex Stout's character, Nero Wolfe, a witty, a genial uncle in my
       family, and my Junior High School guidance counselor.  He is
       heavyset, though not as fat as Wolfe, a gourmand whereas Wolfe
       is a gourmet, leaves his house on business whereas Wolfe rarely
       leaves his New York City brownstone;  Fox can have an
       expectation of violence and will carry a weapon though Wolfe
       almost never does.  They share similar characteristics, both are
       highly educated and speak multiple languages.  They have
       enormous powers of deduction and observation.  They are both
       highly principled.   I think that many will be struck how much
       Ed Fox sounds like Nero Wolfe in speech and mannerism as the
       story progresses.
       I hesitated to writing a story involving this character given
       that he does have the resemblance to Nero Wolfe.  They would
       necessarily do so because Fox has a classical, humanistic
       education from the University of Montana, in Missoula, that
       would correspond with Wolfe's undisclosed European educational
       attainments.  The story should bring out though how Fox is
       different.  Nero Wolfe, with his European education started as
       an idealist, and then, ended in pessimism that led to a
       pragmatism in philosophy.  Fox also began in philosophical
       idealism but instead of going into pessimism, ended up into
       existentialism.
       Fox, in the story, will give the psychological profile of the
       killer.  It will serve as a kind of summary of what this
       character can do.
       I hope that everyone is enjoying the story.  It has some rough
       edges to it.  I will return from time to time to further polish
       the prose.
       The psychology of evil will become a main issue of this story
       before its ending.  I will have no answer to many of the issues
       raised.  I will only be able to present them.  I hope that they
       will provide much for people to think about . . .
       #Post#: 10579--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: HOLLAND Date: March 20, 2015, 6:43 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       As I've been thinking on the story, I find it troubling that
       there could exist a success killer that is always out of the
       reach of prosecution and imprisonment, and that the killer can
       only be brought down by a weakness found in the killer and
       successfully exploited.  It is that detachment and intelligence
       of a serial murderer may allow for the efficient and
       undetectable serial killing but that it can all be brought to
       nought by human passions.
       It causes an idea to be raised about crime and human nature:  to
       be a successful serial murderer, must one be passionless,
       without emotion of any sort, except for the desire and
       satisfaction for power over the victim?  Is such a focus and
       fixation in human nature possible?  I wonder given the strength
       of the will of certain persons in history who've seemingly been
       inflexible to change of any sort . . .
       #Post#: 10582--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: Kerry Date: March 20, 2015, 9:42 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=979.msg10537#msg10537
       date=1426387898]
       Clive Edgar Fox is a hybrid creation, a personage inspired by
       Rex Stout's character, Nero Wolfe, a witty, a genial uncle in my
       family, and my Junior High School guidance counselor.  He is
       heavyset, though not as fat as Wolfe, a gourmand whereas Wolfe
       is a gourmet, leaves his house on business whereas Wolfe rarely
       leaves his New York City brownstone; [/quote]Fresh air is
       deadly!
       [quote]Fox can have an expectation of violence and will carry a
       weapon though Wolfe almost never does.[/quote]
       I heard one radio episode where Wolfe bluffed someone into
       surrendering.  The man had a gun and said he would kill him.
       Wolfe said he had a revolver pointed at him under his desk and
       that Archie his assistant also had a gun. Wolfe also said he was
       so fat, a bullet might not do much damage to him.    So if the
       man fired, he and Archie would both fire at him and kill him.
       The man surrendered.  Then Wolfe laughed and said he didn't have
       a revolver.
       [quote]  They share similar characteristics, both are highly
       educated and speak multiple languages.  They have enormous
       powers of deduction and observation.  They are both highly
       principled.   I think that many will be struck how much Ed Fox
       sounds like Nero Wolfe in speech and mannerism as the story
       progresses.
       I hesitated to writing a story involving this character given
       that he does have the resemblance to Nero Wolfe.  They would
       necessarily do so because Fox has a classical, humanistic
       education from the University of Montana, in Missoula, that
       would correspond with Wolfe's undisclosed European educational
       attainments.  The story should bring out though how Fox is
       different.  Nero Wolfe, with his European education started as
       an idealist, and then, ended in pessimism that led to a
       pragmatism in philosophy.  Fox also began in philosophical
       idealism but instead of going into pessimism, ended up into
       existentialism.[/quote]
       If it was a longer story, you could have someone teasing Fox
       about the similarities and mocking him gently for the ways he's
       inferior to Wolfe.
       I heard another episode once with  foul language.  I heard it on
       the internet; but it came from an aired broadcast.   I believe
       it had been on a New City station -- either WABC or WOR.   It
       must have been before the FCC made rules about language on the
       radio.   I don't know when the FCC made rules.
       #Post#: 10585--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: HOLLAND Date: March 21, 2015, 8:51 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Nero Wolfe is a fascinating character.  His monstrous pride is
       his great fault, though Rex Stout generally makes him look
       ridiculous when he is in that mode.
       [quote author=Kerry link=topic=979.msg10582#msg10582
       date=1426905728]
       Fresh air is deadly!
       I heard one radio episode where Wolfe bluffed someone into
       surrendering.  The man had a gun and said he would kill him.
       Wolfe said he had a revolver pointed at him under his desk and
       that Archie his assistant also had a gun. Wolfe also said he was
       so fat, a bullet might not do much damage to him.    So if the
       man fired, he and Archie would both fire at him and kill him.
       The man surrendered.  Then Wolfe laughed and said he didn't have
       a revolver.
       If it was a longer story, you could have someone teasing Fox
       about the similarities and mocking him gently for the ways he's
       inferior to Wolfe.
       I heard another episode once with  foul language.  I heard it on
       the internet; but it came from an aired broadcast.   I believe
       it had been on a New City station -- either WABC or WOR.   It
       must have been before the FCC made rules about language on the
       radio.   I don't know when the FCC made rules.
       [/quote]
       I wonder how much Rex Stout sanctioned the story telling on the
       old-time radio broadcasts.  He was very particular, or should I
       say protective, about his creations.  He even turned down Ian
       Fleming's offer to have a joint story of James Bond with Nero
       Wolfe.  I understand that Stout was heard to say, "Bond would
       get all the girls . . ."
       I envision Fox and Wolfe and Archie being within the same
       fictional world; but  I would consider Wolfe and Archie to be
       deceased at this time.  I don't think that people would make the
       comparison between Fox and Wolfe, but the story will make that
       clear.  Fox is married and when he was younger was a hippie kind
       of chap . . .
       #Post#: 10588--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Notes on Holland's Story
       By: Kerry Date: March 22, 2015, 6:58 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=979.msg10585#msg10585
       date=1426989098]
       Nero Wolfe is a fascinating character.  His monstrous pride is
       his great fault, though Rex Stout generally makes him look
       ridiculous when he is in that mode.[/quote]I am at a
       disadvantage since haven't read any of the stories.  My
       impression of him, from the radio series, is that he's very
       clever and gifted but also plagued by an inferiority complex
       which he hides behind all the bravado.
       [quote]I wonder how much Rex Stout sanctioned the story telling
       on the old-time radio broadcasts.  He was very particular, or
       should I say protective, about his creations.  He even turned
       down Ian Fleming's offer to have a joint story of James Bond
       with Nero Wolfe.  I understand that Stout was heard to say,
       "Bond would get all the girls . . ."[/quote]Would that matter?
       Wolfe shows no interest in women in the radio series and scoffs
       and teases at Archie's excessive displays of  heterosexuality.
       Over all, they strike me as a couple in love in denial of the
       sexual attraction.
       I just found Stout's birthday and did his horoscope.  My guess,
       looking at it, is that he was either bisexual or a closeted gay
       with his Mars being opposed by Saturn and squared by Uranus.
       [quote]I envision Fox and Wolfe and Archie being within the same
       fictional world; but  I would consider Wolfe and Archie to be
       deceased at this time.  I don't think that people would make the
       comparison between Fox and Wolfe, but the story will make that
       clear.  Fox is married and when he was younger was a hippie kind
       of chap . . .[/quote]
       There are some similarities between Wolfe and that other
       fictional character, Mycroft Holmes.  Both are sedentary and
       seclusive.   A radical difference is that Mycroft worked for the
       government while Wolfe seems indifferent to government, even
       willing to trick the police if it serves his purpose.
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