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#Post#: 10018--------------------------------------------------
God of Jacob
By: Kerry Date: January 11, 2015, 8:45 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=959.msg10007#msg10007
date=1420941206]
If you say "the God of Jacob" is Jesus Christ, you create all
kinds of problems with the Bible.
[/quote][quote author=Arsenios link=topic=959.msg10013#msg10013
date=1420956342]
In this Creation, Christ IS the God of the Old Testament...
He is the God of Adam, and Moses, and the Prophets, and David,
and John the Baptist...
[/quote]What do you do with this:
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Whom would Jesus (as the LORD) being talking to to tell him to
sit at his right hand?
Jesus' conversation with Satan also poses some awkward
questions.
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou
be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by
bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth
of God.
Could Jesus be saying others should live by hearing every word
that he Jesus was saying? That would be odd, wouldn't it?
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high
mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the
glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou
wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is
written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt
thou serve.
Was Jesus telling Satan that Satan should be worshipping him
Jesus, or was he saying he should not worship Satan since he
worshipped only God?
Would you say it was Jesus trying to kill Moses?
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the
LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Was it Jesus who provoked David to count Israel?
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled
against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go,
number Israel and Judah.
If yes, that would make Jesus and Satn the same person since
another passage has it:
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and
provoked David to number Israel.
I believe it may have been Justin Martyr who first opined that
the expression "angel of the LORD" meant Jesus; but I don't
think the Catholic Church agrees with that. I surely don't. Is
the mystery of God so easily pinned down? I doubt it. In the
last two passages, we find that "the LORD" can mean almost
anything; and that the "wrath of the LORD" is Satan.
The Jews say that it was not God who "tried" to kill Moses but
Samael.
And another question: Was Jesus saying the greatest commandment
was to love him?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
[quote]Think the post-Crucifixion Road to Emmaeus encounter with
Christ...[/quote]I don't see how that helps make your point.
Acts 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to
believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
He refers to himself as "Christ" there. In Hebrew, it would be
Messiah. Someone who is called messiah means someone who has
the anointing of God. It does not mean that person is God.
The references to King Messiah are concealed. You can find the
word being used about earthly priests and kings since that's how
it used in the Hebrew Scriptures; but you need to read between
the lines to get the concealed references to King Messiah since
that doctrine is not openly revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures.
This passage would also need explaining:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.
#Post#: 10022--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Arsenios Date: January 11, 2015, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Kerry]
What do you do with this:
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Whom would Jesus (as the LORD) being talking to to tell him to
sit at his right hand? [/quote]
God the Father...
[quote]Jesus' conversation with Satan also poses some awkward
questions.
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou
be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by
bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth
of God.
Could Jesus be saying others should live by hearing every word
that he Jesus was saying? That would be odd, wouldn't
it?[/quote]
Not when He is both God and man...
[quote]8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high
mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the
glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou
wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is
written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt
thou serve.
Was Jesus telling Satan that Satan should be worshipping Him
Jesus, or was he saying He should not worship Satan since he
worshipped only God?[/quote]
Yes... (to both)
[quote]Would you say it was Jesus trying to kill Moses?
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the
LORD met him, and sought to kill him.[/quote]
Of course - Not trying but seeking to kill him...
Was it Jesus who provoked David to count Israel?
[quote]2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled
against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go,
number Israel and Judah.
If yes, that would make Jesus and Satan the same person since
another passage has it:
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and
provoked David to number Israel.[/quote]
These are but two ways of saying the same thing...
[quote]I believe it may have been Justin Martyr who first opined
that the expression "angel of the LORD" meant Jesus; but I don't
think the Catholic Church agrees with that. I surely don't. Is
the mystery of God so easily pinned down? I doubt it. In the
last two passages, we find that "the LORD" can mean almost
anything; and that the "wrath of the LORD" is Satan. [/quote]
You have a problem with that? The Angel of Great Council is
Christ... He is OUR Father... As is His Father...
[quote]The Jews say that it was not God who "tried" to kill
Moses but Samael. [/quote]
Nor would I have a problem with that...
[quote]And another question: Was Jesus saying the greatest
commandment was to love Him?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.[/quote]
Sure... Easier said than done, mind you...
Think the post-Crucifixion Road to Emmaeus encounter with
Christ...
[quote]I don't see how that helps make your point.
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to
believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
He refers to himself as "Christ" there. In Hebrew, it would be
Messiah. Someone who is called messiah means someone who has
the anointing of God. It does not mean that person is God.
The references to King Messiah are concealed. You can find the
word being used about earthly priests and kings since that's how
it used in the Hebrew Scriptures; but you need to read between
the lines to get the concealed references to King Messiah since
that doctrine is not openly revealed in the Hebrew
Scriptures.[/quote]
I was thinking more along this later sentence:
BYZ TEXT
και
αρξαμενος
απο μωσεως
And beginning from Moses...
και απο
παντων των
προφητων
And from all the Prophets...
διηρμηνευε_
7;
αυτοις εν
πασαις ταις
γραφαις
He explained to them in all the Scriptures [Old Testament]
τα περι
εαυτου
The things concerning Himself.
The question for you, you see, is "WHAT THINGS?"
[quote]This passage would also need explaining:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.[/quote]
"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father..."
That is the Mystery of the Trinity...
FROM the Father BY the Son and IN the Holy Spirit...
Only vanity will try to take it further...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10024--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Kerry Date: January 11, 2015, 6:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=962.msg10022#msg10022
date=1421021090]
God the Father...[/quote]How can that be when the Scriptures say
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father?
[quote]Not when He is both God and man...[/quote]The
conversation doesn't make much sense if you think this way.
[quote]Yes... (to both)[/quote]And Satan did not know this?
[quote]Of course - Not trying but seeking to kill
him...[/quote]So He sought to kill. What went wrong that He
failed?
[quote]These are but two ways of saying the same
thing...[/quote]You said Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
The question is if Jesus provoked David to count the people?
[quote]You have a problem with that? The Angel of Great Council
is Christ... He is OUR Father... As is His Father...[/quote]It
doesn't make a lick of sense to me. This idea would mean
nothing changed in Heaven by what Jesus did on earth.
[quote]Nor would I have a problem with that...[/quote]It makes
more sense to me than saying every time we see the word YHVH, we
should think it was Jesus.
[quote]Sure... Easier said than done, mind you...[/quote]
If so, then we would be elevating Jesus above the Father.
[quote] Think the post-Crucifixion Road to Emmaeus encounter
with Christ...
I was thinking more along this later sentence:
BYZ TEXT
και
αρξαμενος
απο μωσεως
And beginning from Moses...
και απο
παντων των
προφητων
And from all the Prophets...
διηρμηνευε_
7;
αυτοις εν
πασαις ταις
γραφαις
He explained to them in all the Scriptures [Old Testament]
τα περι
εαυτου
The things concerning Himself.
The question for you, you see, is "WHAT THINGS?"[/quote]
The text does not say; but you can match that verse up with this
one.
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to
believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the
foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world
hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
If you want to find where Jesus is in the Old Testament then,
searching for where he suffered is probably a good plan.
[quote]"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father..."
That is the Mystery of the Trinity...
FROM the Father BY the Son and IN the Holy Spirit...[/quote]You
are contradicting the verse I cited and then saying it's a
mystery that can't be understood. Paul is clear.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.
Paul doesn't say there is a Trinity. He says what Moses said.
There is but one God -- the Father. When Paul then mentions
Jesus, he calls his "master" or "lord" and also "anointed" or
"messiah." Those words do not equate to being God. There is
but One God, and the Jews know what He is. Peter says something
similar:
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us
again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead,
Jesus is called "Lord" and "Christ" but not God. John uses
similar descriptions:
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave
unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his
servant John:
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were
great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are
become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall
reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now
is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and
the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast
down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Jesus himself also drew the same distinction:
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour
cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at
Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father
seeketh such to worship him.
We also see there that we should worship the Father. Then
Jesus' role as Messiah gets discussed:
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which
is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Jesus is espousing the Jewish view and says the Jews are right.
His claim was he was Messiah, not God. He did not tell that
woman to worship him as part of a Trinity.
[quote]Only vanity will try to take it further...[/quote]I'd say
men's vanity already carried them too far with the invention of
mysteries which create contradictions in the Scriptures.
#Post#: 10031--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Arsenios Date: January 11, 2015, 9:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
God the Father...
[Quote=Kerry]How can that be when the Scriptures say Jesus sits
at the right hand of the Father? [/Quote]
This is speaking of Christ in His human nature...
Not when He is both God and man...
[Quote]The conversation doesn't make much sense if you think
this way.[/Quote]
But He IS both God and man, don't you agree?
Yes... (to both)
[Quote]And Satan did not know this? [/Quote]
Does it matter?
Of course - Not trying but seeking to kill him...
[Quote]So He sought to kill. What went wrong that He
failed?[/Quote]
His failure was part of the plan...
These are but two ways of saying the same thing...
[Quote]You said Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
The question is if Jesus provoked David to count the
people?[/Quote]
You can say it that way... The Logos is Jesus unincarnated...
Jesus is the Logos incarnated...
"And THROUGH Him were made all things that are made...
And apart from Him was nothing made..."
Which combines with God the Father of the Logos-Christ being the
Maker of ALL things...
The Angel of Great Council is Christ... He is OUR Father...
As is His Father...
[Quote]It doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
This idea would mean nothing changed in Heaven by what Jesus did
on earth. [/Quote]
I don't see why...
Nor would I have a problem with that...
[Quote]It makes more sense to me than saying every time we see
the word YHVH, we should think it was Jesus.[/Quote]
He is the Heir, and has been in it from the beginnings - It all
came to be through Him, at the Agency, if you will, of the
Father... They are One and the Same God, but not one and the
same Person...
Sure... Easier said than done, mind you...
[Quote]If so, then we would be elevating Jesus above the Father.
[/Quote]
It would help if you might take matters one at a time, and
include the trail leading to your responses...
I am old and forget things easily without them being in front of
me...
Think the post-Crucifixion Road to Emmaeus encounter with
Christ...
I was thinking more along this later sentence:
BYZ TEXT
και
αρξαμενος
απο μωσεως
And beginning from Moses...
και απο
παντων των
προφητων
And from all the Prophets...
διηρμηνευε_
7;
αυτοις εν
πασαις ταις
γραφαις
He explained to them in all the Scriptures [Old Testament]
τα περι
εαυτου
The things concerning Himself.
The question for you, you see, is "WHAT THINGS?"
[Quote]The text does not say; but you can match that verse up
with this one.[/Quote]
[Quote]Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of
heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning
himself.[/Quote]
This still does not give you the answer to "WHAT THINGS?"
[Quote]Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since
the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the
world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of
himself.
If you want to find where Jesus is in the Old Testament then,
searching for where he suffered is probably a good plan.
[Quote]
I would go to the Body of Christ Whose Head He IS... That be
the Orthodox Church...
Look - The whole of the Old Testament is but preparation for the
Incarnation of the Anointed One... It is ALL about Him... it
is about He Himself as God, God the Son of the Father Who is His
God and Father, and God the Holy Spirit, establishing the Kosmos
and the earth for the Kingdom of Heaven, where Christ Incarnate,
now at the Right Hand of the Most High, is the King... Christ
and the Kingdom of Heaven on earth to this day IS the
fulfillment of the Old Testament record of the preparation...
"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father..."
That is the Mystery of the Trinity...
FROM the Father BY the Son and IN the Holy Spirit...
[Quote]You are contradicting the verse I cited and then saying
it's a mystery that can't be understood. [/Quote]
Oh, it CAN be understood, but not explained conceptually...
[Quote]Paul is clear.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.
Paul doesn't say there is a Trinity. He says what Moses said.
There is but one God -- the Father. When Paul then mentions
Jesus, he calls his "master" or "lord" and also "anointed" or
"messiah." Those words do not equate to being God. There is
but One God, and the Jews know what He is. [/Quote]
Are you saying that Christ is not the Son of God His Father?
Can a Son somehow NOT be the same Nature as His Father?
The Jews certainly understood Him to be claiming to be the Son
of God...
[Quote]Peter says something similar:
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us
again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead,
Jesus is called "Lord" and "Christ" but not God. John uses
similar descriptions:[/Quote]
If you are denying the Divinity of Jesus Christ, then we may not
have a conversation...
That is a given as a Christian... Are you a Christian? Do you
worship Christ?
[Quote]Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must
shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel
unto his servant John:
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were
great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are
become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall
reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now
is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and
the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast
down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Jesus himself also drew the same distinction:
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour
cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at
Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father
seeketh such to worship him.
We also see there that we should worship the Father. Then
Jesus' role as Messiah gets discussed:
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which
is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Jesus is espousing the Jewish view and says the Jews are right.
His claim was he was Messiah, not God. He did not tell that
woman to worship him as part of a Trinity. [/Quote]
Do you deny He had a human AND a Divine Nature?
[Quote]I'd say men's vanity already carried them too far with
the invention of mysteries which create contradictions in the
Scriptures. [/Quote]
To try to turn Scriptures into a logical system is to
de-divinize it...
Besides, as Paul so shockingly wrote:
"We are holding the MYSTERY of the FAITH in a purified
conscience..."
AND...
"We have the NOUS of Christ!"
Arsenios
#Post#: 10046--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Laurie Date: January 12, 2015, 5:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Personally….I wouldn't consider one to be a non-believer if they
understood the divinity of Christ to mean his
God-likeness---that the fullness of God was in him---while
understanding God to be the one supreme deity.
#Post#: 10052--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Arsenios Date: January 12, 2015, 9:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Laurie]
Personally….I wouldn't consider one to be a non-believer
if they understood the divinity of Christ to mean his
God-likeness---
that the fullness of God was in him---
while understanding God to be the one supreme deity.
[/quote]
Well, I am the son of my father, who was a human person...
So is my humanity a SIMILARITY to being human?
OR...
Am I human because my father is human?
Do you deny that Christ had a human AND a Divine Nature?
Kerry seems to be ducking this question...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10068--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Laurie Date: January 13, 2015, 5:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Arsenios]Do you deny that Christ had a human AND a Divine
Nature?[/quote]
No.
Does 'divinity' and 'deity' mean the same thing to you?
#Post#: 10092--------------------------------------------------
Re: God of Jacob
By: Arsenios Date: January 13, 2015, 11:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Laurie]
Does 'divinity' and 'deity' mean the same thing to you?
[/quote]
No...
But we were speaking of the two natures...
One is the nature of God...
The other is the nature of man...
The one is uncreated...
The other is created...
The Church teaches that the Person of Christ had both by
nature...
And this because He IS both God and man...
And we, in Him, can have by Grace what He had by Nature...
Arsenios
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