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#Post#: 10251--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 28, 2015, 8:30 am
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[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=960.msg10249#msg10249
date=1422448593]
No, Kerry. God retains his sovereignty. [/quote]Agreed, hence
the importance of the covenants God made with men. The partial
exchange of identity in a covenant means that to a certain
extent God dwells in men; and to the same extent they possess
the Spirit, they can lawfully direct its flow. Thus a person
with the Spirit himself can transmit it to others.
[quote]There is, granted, the possibility of deception by
proceeding alone, but reliance upon the aid of others can also
result in deception. Groups can and do make errors in respect
to the Holy Spirit. Groups can be more pernicious in the error
given that they propagate the errors more easily. [/quote]
You can't cheat an honest man, or to use more Biblical language,
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" or "My
sheep hear my voice."
I believe the person with an impure heart who seeks spiritual
guidance and assistance from others will get what he wants.
Sometimes this leads to total ruin if the person hardens his
heart; but the chastening influence of satanic influences exist
to nudge the person into repentance. It is an error to believe
God wishes to punish people or that He allows the demonic to
punish people. It is meant to correct, not punish.
I had my experiences in what I would call false religion or
mistaken religion. I do not regret them. They taught me
something. The things I regret are the things I've done to
others -- some of which seem next to impossible to undo. I do
not regret the things which happened to me as the result of my
decisions.
So I believe the various denominations all serve their purposes.
Birds of a feather flock together; and people gravitate towards
what they need to learn. For example, there are people who
detest thinking for themselves, yet they want to know it all.
This type of person will be attracted to a denomination that is
dogmatic and authoritative. He may be bruised by it. I suspect
most people are if they are in that kind of church. It's to the
glory of God. They can stay in it until they see how foolish
they have been to want ready-made answers at the expense of
thinking for themselves -- and at the expense of coming to know,
really know, instead of adopting dogmas which have no evidence
for their validity except empty assertions. You could go on and
on with the varieties of denominations and perhaps analyze them
and catalogue them by personality types. I believe you would
find that people either stay in flawed religions until they are
crushed or decide to become more responsible for their own
thoughts, feelings and deeds.
An additional benefit of flawed religion is that it tends to
prevent some catastrophes in life even if the person is obeying
commandments without understanding.
I would also say there is not a single person on this earth who
can claim truthfully that he has contacted Heaven by himself
without the aid of another. Even if he were on a desert
island, I would say he benefited by the prayers of the
righteous. The first impartation of the Spirit is by hearing
the Word. The seed is planted so. Now often men are involved
-- godly men with pure tongues (or pure enough to get the
message out) -- who inform others about God and His Love by
speaking. This is exercising dominion over the earth. The
hearer is free to accept or reject. But who really preaches the
Gospel? I say it's the angel in Heaven that John wrote about.
Someone may hear another human talking about the Gospel, but for
the hearer to hear truly, he must wonder if that is right. Is
there a God out there? A God of Love and Mercy? He is in
darkness and does not know; but when he turns, turns, turns,
looking and seeking, then back comes the answer and he hears the
Mighty Angel in Heaven who has the everlasting Gospel.
[quote]"That he is there with them."[/quote]Yes. And if you're
in a church with the spirit of the antichrist and you are
seeking the spirit of the antichrist, that is what you will get.
[quote]The Spirit does beckon towards community. In the
expression of love that is in Christ and moves outward upon the
workings of the Spirit leads to th working of the value of
relationships. But, it would seem that the immediacy of the
Spirit in the consciousness of the believer must still and
always make it a "Jesus and me" thing. [/quote]
I can't see that. Let us use Paul's metaphor of the body.
Suppose I am a toe on the foot. I am not directly connected to
the head. My place in the body is being attached to the foot.
If the head perceives the body is hungry and needs food, it may
direct the feet to get moving so the whole body can get food.
For me to obey the head, I have to act in unity with other parts
of the foot -- and with the other foot too.
Suppose I get in me -- the toe has a thorn. I can depend on the
head to handle this. For the well being of the rest of the
body, the head will try to solve my problem for me. Again the
eyes will likely play a role, and the fingers too. I can also
count on the body to heal the wound.
This seems carried out in my spiritual life. My experiences
with Jesus himself are rare. What I believe is that I am
relating to Jesus indirectly by relating to others. If you give
someone a cup of water in the name of Jesus, it's the same as
doing it to Jesus. If we turn away from suffering, it's as if
we have turned our back on Jesus.
It also seems perilous to me to crave a personal relationship
with Jesus too much when it is his wish that we love one
another. The peril comes about because a flattering spirit can
more easily deceive us if we fail to put enough emphasis on
loving our neighbor and think we can slide by if we have a
relationship with Jesus. One can fall into self-deception,
believing almost any idea that crosses the mind came from Jesus.
The standard must be Love; and how can we know that if we do
not keep ourselves grounded in reality and analyze our actions
towards others honestly. I believe the best way to insure our
relationship with Jesus is to obey his commandment to love one
another.
[quote]I don't see it, Kerry. I do not see the need of the
washing of the flesh to symbolize an inner working of the
Spirit. To me physical baptism always leads to a position where
there is an ecclesiastical hierarchy that demands a control over
the ritual and, thru it, control over others.[/quote]
It need not lead to that. Paul said he baptized a few people;
but in general, he was like Jesus in avoiding baptizing himself.
One must wonder at the usual Catholic practice however of having
Bishops perform baptisms. Their theological position is that
anyone can do it, even a pagan could if his intention was
correct. I rather doubt that a pagan could summon up the right
intention; but I would also say the intention of the person
being baptized might be sufficient. They prefer Bishops first
of all, then priests, and then anyone in orders, and then any
Christian, and finally anyone at all. As you know, they also
teach that if physical baptism is impossible, spiritual baptism
can occur.
My own belief is that it sends a slightly flawed impression of
baptism to have Bishops do it. I think it would be better to
have members of the congregation do it since that would
emphasize the community more. While we probably disagree about
the usefulness of having a hierarchy, I think baptism, being
the introduction of someone into the Body of Christ, does not
require someone of "high station." Submitting self to someone
of humbler station seems more fitting. One thing for sure,
John the Baptist was not clothed in silk or gold vestments.
Matthew 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the
multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness
to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft
raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings'
houses.
Can you imagine how the hypocrites who went out to be baptized
were probably grinding their teeth at asking someone dressed
like John to baptize them?
The utility of the practice lies, I think, in the same
metaphysics that sympathetic magic involves. When someone is
awake, we can be fairly certain his soul is in the body and
coincides with it. Directing the body to perform certain
actions is also directing the soul in the same direction.
Consider phyllacteries. It does not seem to be the case that the
Sanhedrin originally directed people to wear them. That passage
in the Torah was interpreted completely spiritually. At some
point however, they decided it might help to focus the mind on
its spiritual task if they directed people to make and wear
physical phyllacteries.
Consider too the passage that says Israel was baptized in the
sea and in the cloud. Nothing touched them in physical terms.
Yet what they did see seems to have effected them and made the
spiritual baptism happen.
I am not saying people were baptized at Fatima; but the belief
that it rained there physically is in error. Some believed they
saw it raining and even believed the ground and their clothes
were wet. Yet when the apparition was over, everything was
completely dry; and add to that, some people did not see it
raining or think their clothes or the soil was wet. If people
see something, thinking it's with their physical eyes even if it
isn't, I think it can make things happen spiritually more
easily. A person with spiritual sight would have seen the
"rain" but realized it was not physical.
Compare that to Jesus disappearing in clouds. People still
believe he went up and disappeared in physical clouds; but the
angels chided the observers. "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye
gazing up into heaven?" Compare that also to the "cloud of
incense" between the two cherubim on the Ark. Was the incense
really necessary? I'd say no. The picture of it all was meant
to instruct people; but they were forbidden to view it
physically themselves. What does it all mean then? I say there
is a seed planted in the heart, yes; but there is also one can
be sown in the inner eye -- between the two physical eyes. It
is this inner eye or single eye which can "see" God. If that
eye is in darkness, the whole body will be also.
So what about the props of sympathetic magic? When I practiced
magic, I realized they were only props. I did not see the
value in them so I never used them. I never "drew a magic
circle" in my whole life. I agree with Aleister Crowley on
that -- who said if the magician had to draw a magic circle to
protect himself during a ritual, he was in peril -- one should
have that circle at all times. I still believe that. If one is
walking in the Light of God, it sheds a light around him -- and
it forms a circle on the ground around him. It is like a lamp
to his feet. But some people find props useful -- and so I
find using props in baptism useful although not necessary.
#Post#: 10254--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: HOLLAND Date: January 29, 2015, 6:45 am
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I shall give your view some thought, Kerry.
If we could agree that water baptism is a prop, it would seem
that it could be dispensed. Certainly human psychology needs
the comfort in many instances with physical symbols of a
spiritual reality. As my experience of the Spirit has
disclosed, it is the certitude provided by the Spirit that
provides the knowing of one's salvation. And this salvation
does lead to a change of who one is, a change in respect to
one's life in respect to morality, an inner growth in that
reality of the Spirit, a sensing of the fullness (pleroma) of
Christ. There is a knowing of Christ as a person, yet,
paradoxically, a hiddeness that is found in the Godhead that
calls for faith. There is this growth in the existential, where
we are becoming what we wish to become, becoming what God wishes
us to be in this life. There is joy in sadness, a recognition
that there are illusions in life, and sometimes we partake of
those illusions. We grow in Wisdom and in that of the Word,
both spoken and unspoken, until we attain that crown of
righteousness that is joyously gifted us in the eschaton.
In all this, I grant, we are certainly enwrapped in symbols, and
in props of a greater reality.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 10256--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 29, 2015, 4:39 pm
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[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=960.msg10254#msg10254
date=1422535549]
I shall give your view some thought, Kerry.
If we could agree that water baptism is a prop, it would seem
that it could be dispensed. Certainly human psychology needs the
comfort in many instances with physical symbols of a spiritual
reality. [/quote]If it is often a useful prop, why should anyone
want to dispense with it? I take the view that if someone is
useful, then use it. Take the marriage ceremony. To me, that
too is a prop. Two people could certainly marry each other just
by agreeing it is so; but I would be suspicious somewhat if one
of the parties wanted to marry and keep it a secret. I might
even be suspicious if he or she did not want any kind of
ceremony in front of others. If people did not want to have a
binding agreement about what would happen if they broke the
marriage vow, I'd certainly be suspicious.
Just having witnesses at a wedding should discourage people from
breaking their vows. Receiving presents may also encourage them
since they should feel that people want their marriage to
succeed. Likewise the ritual of baptism may encourage people
by giving them a sense of belonging with the others witnessing
it. If the only objection is that it's a prop, why not do it?
I can often go along with things not because I find them
necessary or even useful myself but because others may benefit.
If others want things that way and I don't care much either
way, why not go along?
Ideally too, two people should be able to make a verbal
contract and honor it. In that case, the paper they sign is an
empty gesture. Still if you sell something to someone and he
agrees to pay you later, you often ask him him to sign. If he
refuses, you would be right to think he may want to defraud
you. He has some reason for not making the gesture which
should be an empty one if he is a person of integrity.
I am not saying people who don't believe in physical baptism
lack integrity; but I do wonder what they do with the various
Scriptures that command it. I believe there has to be a good
reason for it to be commanded (that's assuming the passages are
authentic); and I would want to know why it was commanded by men
who may know more than I do. If I take the attitude they
commanded it out of ignorance, I'm risking erring out of vanity.
Do I really know so much more than they did? If so, if they
were ignorant men given to superstition, why believe anything
they wrote? The prevailing attitudes of science may not be
right. I do not think they are. We should allow materialism to
infect our theology. Now of course, physical water can't save
anyone. Of course not. That's taking a scientific,
common-sense attitude that overlooks how physical stimuli can
often affect mind and soul.
Take the blind man Jesus healed by putting clay and spit on his
eyes. Was that necessary? I'd say in that case it was. If the
man had had more faith, it wouldn't have been necessary; but
using the prop helped bolster his faith. I would say though
that the spit may have had some spiritual effect being energized
spiritually.
In another case, Jesus took a blind aside away from the town.
My guess was to avoid the influences of doubters and perhaps
also to avoid being charged with practicing magic since he also
used spit there as well.
It seems to me that props in the Bible are often used to
overcome obstacles. If I wanted to do magic in front of people,
I'd use props. They have faith in those props, so I'd use
them. If I can get people to believe in the usefulness of the
props, I'm adding their faith to mine.
A woman once was complaining about her husband; and I asked her
what she wanted. She told me. I then prepared a little wax
figure of him and tied it to the sill of the door between the
kitchen and living room so she'd see it every time she went
past. I did nothing else. I was testing how the belief of
others affected magic. She already believed I had magical
powers; but I wanted to see if I could something to work by
doing nothing myself.
It did work. To her horror it worked. She had asked for three
things; and when they started to happen, she got so frightened,
she took the wax figure down and threw it away. She wanted the
spell reversed; but there was nothing I could do then. She had
done it, not me. All I did was make a little wax figure. She
had been the person who put the energy into things. If she
hadn't thrown it away, perhaps it could have been changed. The
prop had taken on that much importance.
Props can take on energy too. One day I walking with a girl on
the towpath next to the old canal in Maryland; and for some
reason, I was walking ahead of her. All of a sudden, I felt a
malevolent force off to the right so I stopped to look to see
what was going on. I saw a tiny hangman's noose. I stood
there transfixed until the girl caught up and asked me what I
was staring at. She mocked me at first. I said, "Look." Then
she was horrified too. I then ran away back to the car. The
next day I knew what to do. I could not alter the mental energy
in that noose and didn't even know what evil purpose was behind
it; but I could do something. I took the noose home and buried
it in the yard. My friend asked if we could burn it. Perhaps
we could have; but I saw that as opposing the will of the person
who had made it. I don't like setting up opposition to others
that way. If I buried it, the earth would undo it. The forces
of nature themselves would take care of it.
Did you read that the Vatican put what they say are the bones of
Peter on display? If they are the bones of Peter, it was a big
mistake to put them on public display. Whatever validity the
relics of Peter may have given to the Bishops of Rome will be
eroded by exposing them to the casual view of the public since
so many of them will be skeptics. Yet it does not surprise me
since this Pope is the last on the list of St. Malachy. The
bones of Peter would be better props in my opinion if kept
secret. Some would believe they were there; and the people who
didn't believe in them wouldn't have anything to focus on. All
told, while I believe many things the Catholic Church teaches, I
find their metaphysics lacking.
[quote] As my experience of the Spirit has disclosed, it is the
certitude provided by the Spirit that provides the knowing of
one's salvation. And this salvation does lead to a change of
who one is, a change in respect to one's life in respect to
morality, an inner growth in that reality of the Spirit, a
sensing of the fullness (pleroma) of Christ. There is a knowing
of Christ as a person, yet, paradoxically, a hiddeness that is
found in the Godhead that calls for faith. There is this growth
in the existential, where we are becoming what we wish to
become, becoming what God wishes us to be in this life. There
is joy in sadness, a recognition that there are illusions in
life, and sometimes we partake of those illusions. We grow in
Wisdom and in that of the Word, both spoken and unspoken, until
we attain that crown of righteousness that is joyously gifted us
in the eschaton.
In all this, I grant, we are certainly enwrapped in symbols, and
in props of a greater reality.
[/quote]Words are symbols too; and it seems to me that many
people put too trust in words without seeking the reality behind
the words. Isn't the Bible a prop for us since we cannot see
things for ourselves?
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