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#Post#: 10010--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 10, 2015, 11:34 pm
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[quote=Kerry]Paul should be read cautiously as Peter advised.
He's writing loosely there. Paul is not always precise. [/quote]
I would argue that he is very precise here:
Romans 5:12 BYZ –
δια τουτο
ωσπερ δι
ενος
ανθρωπου
Through which just as through one man
η αμαρτια
εις τον
κοσμον
εισηλθεν
Sin into the kosmos entered
και δια της
αμαρτιας ο
θανατος
and through sin death
και ουτως
εις παντας
ανθρωπους
And thus unto all men
ο θανατος
διηλθεν
did death travel
εφ ω
upon which [eg upon death]
παντες
ημαρτον
all have sinned.
It is the presence of death in all men that causes all men to
sin...
The Church has taught this from the beginning...
I would be surprised if the Hassidim do not teach it as well...
We do not, you see, inherit Adam's sin...
What he passed on to us is death...
In Adam, all men die...
For which cause [that pesky εφ' ω, you see... ]
All have sinned...
Except Christ, Who also died by choice...
And thereby overcame death in Himself...
As do we, in Him...
[quote]First the word "sin" does not show up in Genesis about
Adam or Eve.[/quote]
You know what you would say if I argued this to you, so I will
pass on the pull ease retort!
[quote]Secondly, if we do call Adam's act a "sin," what do we
call Eve's act?[/quote]
The temptation of Adam...
[quote]Was that not also a sin?[/quote]
Of course it was/is... How ELSE could he be tempted?
[quote]Did she not commit it before Adam did?[/quote]
Is the Pope a heretic?
[quote]We can how loosely he writes because elsewhere he says
Eve was the first to be at fault and not Adam. [/quote]
That is what you just said too...
And me too... ::)
[quote]He also says only that sin entered the world that
way.[/quote]
Well, he did manage to stammer forth that DEATH most assuredly
did enter by means of sin...
[quote]There is no mention of inherited guilt as Augustine and
some Protestants seem to think.[/quote]
Bingo! We manage to generate plenty of that all on our own
without Adam's guilt...
[quote]The most I can say is that Adam's act made the evil urge
in the world and in his children stronger. The evil urge was
stronger than the good in Cain while the good urge was stronger
in Abel; but Cain was born that way so he could master it. God
told him to. We also learn that if we do not master the evil
urge in ourselves, it will rise and may master us.[/quote]
The "Evil Urge" in Adam and Eve prior to their Fall by Sin into
Death is not in the Bible, nor is it in the Christian
Tradition...
I would like you to take a look at the actual text concerning
the temptation of Adam...
In terms of what it offered to him...
And WHY it could not GIVE what was offered...
And in that endeavor, we will perhaps see our Salvation
differently...
We can open a thread on it if you like: "The Temptation of Adam"
Would you like to take that look with me?
Arsenios
#Post#: 10012--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 11, 2015, 12:00 am
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BYZ –
πας ο
γεγεννημεν_
9;ς
εκ του θεου
αμαρτιαν ου
ποιει
Everyone begotten from God is not committing sin
οτι σπερμα
αυτου εν
αυτω μενει
because the Seed of Him in him is abiding,
και ου
δυναται
αμαρτανειν
and he is not able to be sinning
οτι εκ του
θεου
γεγεννηται
because from God he has been begotten
It does not mean that if you are begotten of God you cannot
sin...
It means that you cannot be sinning...
That has caused great confusion in the West...
[quote=Kerry]It says you cannot be committing sin, unable to be
sinning. Now logically, if you are unable to sin, you cannot
sin. I don't see your point.[/quote]
It is the Greek ongoing present tense... Here is the
progression from the simple (almost Germanic) English present to
the clear Greek meaning:
"Unable to sin" means cannot sin ever...
"Unable to be sinning" makes an occasional sin at least
possible...
"Unable to keep on sinning" is the actual Greek meaning of the
present tense active or participle...
Hence the first mistranslates the Greek...
The second is accurrate...
The third is according to the actual Greek meaning...
He (Augustine) is the Father of Apostatic Western
Theology...
AND
He is a Saint in the Orthodox Church...
The Eastern Fathers do not have his doctrines on Adam's
sin...
[quote]If you know how the Orthodox Church canonizes people and
proclaims them saints, I wouldn't say this means that much. I
had a man studying to be an Orthodox priest say he wished he had
never been made a saint in the Orthodox calendar. His opinions
are not those of a saint if you ask me. [/quote]
Sainthood is not a product of correct theological opinions...
[quote]Satan has no power at all except what men and women give
him.[/quote]
He has the power of death over those who have sinned...
[quote]God would never allow His creation man to be ruled by
demonic powers . . . unless man himself wanted it that
way.[/quote]
Adam turned from God TO demonic powers via the Fall...
And we are IN Adam...
Until we are IN Christ...
[quote]God gave dominion over the earth to man; and it's still
that way. Nothing's changed.[/quote]
Prior to the fall, there was no death, and now there IS death...
That is a HUGE change...
[quote]at no time did He abandon mankind to be allowed to be the
playthings of Satan.[/quote]
He gave him free will with a fallen soul in a fallen world
filled with demonic powers...
Quote
We must, because we commit the same sin...
What IS that sin?
It is the sin of TURNING AWAY FROM GOD...
And the WAY of this sin is BROAD indeed!
But no, we do not have to repent of eating the apple...
Yet we are commanded to fast...
[quote]Was that Adam's mistake? I am not so sure. Did God tell
him to cleave to Eve? Now what would you do if God told you to
be faithful to a woman and she sinned and was about to be cast
out of Eden? How could you obey God and cleave to her if she
wasn't with you? Adam also said, "Therefore shall a man leave
his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and
they shall be one flesh."[/quote]
Let's start that thread on it...
Israel was Patralineal, so the responsibility for the fall of
man was Adam's...
Israel is STILL Patralineal in Christ...
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the Head
of His Bride, the Church...
[quote]It looks to me as if Adam's offense was different from
Eve's. I see Adam as willing to fall under the sentence of death
himself so he could be with Eve.[/quote]
Reads like a Romance Novel...
[quote]Was that a sin? I don't know. Genesis doesn't call it
that. Would Adam and Eve have had any children if Adam had not
also eaten the forbidden fruit and shared Eve's fate? Perhaps
the fate of the whole human race depended on it. Perhaps Adam's
motive was love for Eve and offspring not born yet?
Perhaps either way, he had to disobey God. He could eat along
with Eve or he could fail to cleave to her. Perhaps he was also
willing to lay down his life so he could obey the commandment to
be fruitful and multiply. [/quote]
Another thread...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10027--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 11, 2015, 8:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Back to the OP...
If Salvation is from the death that entered into the kosmos
through the sin of Adam
then all that would be needed for it would be God's forgiveness
of sin...
The problem with this view is that even when God forgives, man
can keep on sinning...
And we know that to sin is to live in death...
And the reason for this is that God is our Creator...
And thereby is the Source of our life, Who gave us existence...
And for us to turn away from God to sin...
Is to embrace non-existence...
And non-existence is death...
Hence the SOURCE of sin must be overcome...
And that source is the human will...
And the deception of satan...
Who works through death and survival, pleasure and pain, and
pride...
Now only one Man did not sin at all...
And Blessed is that Man...
Who hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly...
And hath not stood in the way of sinners...
So that is is death that we are to overcome...
Through the operation of our will to choose...
To walk following Christ...
Within His Body...
And in order to do this, we must escape from Adam's fatal birth,
And become a new creature in the New Adam, Christ...
And the question then becomes:
HOW do we enter into the Body of Christ?
Arsenios
#Post#: 10028--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: meshak Date: January 11, 2015, 8:41 pm
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg10027#msg10027
date=1421030069]
HOW do we enter into the Body of Christ?
Arsenios
[/quote]Simple: by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior with
all your heart, soul, strength and mind.
#Post#: 10033--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 11, 2015, 9:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Meshak]
[quote=Arsenios]HOW do we enter into the Body of Christ?[/quote]
Simple: by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior
with all your heart, soul, strength and mind.
[/quote]
What then do you do with the Scripture that tells us that we are
Baptized into Christ?
Arsenios
#Post#: 10037--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: coldwar Date: January 11, 2015, 10:46 pm
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^ "Paul should be read cautiously as Peter advised.
He's writing loosely there. Paul is not always precise."
Although I agree that Paul is not always precise, I don't agree
that Peter advised that Paul should be read cautiously.
Examining the text:
2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning
his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering
to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come
as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass
away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall
be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy
conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the
coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire
shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent
heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for
new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be
diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and
blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is
salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to
the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in
all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are
some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned
and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto
their own destruction."
it's clear that Peter did not make a general statement regarding
Paul, that "Paul is hard to understand". Rather, the subject at
hand is hard to understand, by both Peter and Paul, being that
"the longsuffering of the Lord is salvation... that with the
Lord, a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand
years.... and it is thus that through His longsuffering, he is
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
repentance".
The hard thing to understand here, is NOT that God is
longsuffering from generation to generation, but RATHER that He
is longsuffering from Millennia to Millennia, waiting for the
ultimate salvation of all beings through repentance. Peter
states this truth as being a hard thing to understand (which it
is - almost nobody really gets it), and is saying that Paul
backs him up in his Epistles also. He calls Paul "beloved" (and
not "Antichrist"), and says Paul is writing according to this
same "wisdom being given unto him" also.
I would sum this up with - Peter is saying the subject matter,
as written by both himself and Paul is hard to understand, not
that Paul himself is hard to understand.
Now, as to Paul's imprecision, and even a degree of
inconsistency, I would agree. Paul wrote passionately, often
under duress, often angry. He might appear to be doing
flip-flops sometimes. Compared to Peter, who wrote "general
epistles", Paul, in much the same way as Jesus in Revelation 2
and 3 was writing to specific Churches. Wasn't Jesus being
imprecise when He mentions on two occasions how there were
"those who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the
Synagogue of Satan?" To what end would this even have mattered,
as Jerusalem, along with Jewry, was losing it's identity by way
of Roman destruction? Was Jesus still addressing Jewish
Synagogues in the Book of Revelation, or was He addressing
Christian Churches? This has long puzzled me in fact, as there
doesn't seem to be good reason for jesus to have said this,
unless Revelation is in fact a distinctly jewish book, written
about the time of the Jewish wars, as observed by Josephus.
#Post#: 10040--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 12, 2015, 1:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Jesus was addressing the 7 Christian Churches, as Revelation was
written around the turn of the 2nd century, and took a couple
hundred years for the Church to finally include it in the Kanon
of Scripture... To this day, it is never read in any of the
daily readings of the Church that canonized it into Scripture.
(Eastern Orthodox Church)
Great post... Paul can be tricky because, as he himself
explained, he BECOMES all things to all people, that he should
save some... And indeed his epistles are pastoral to specific
Churches, and the big deal of his times was the very reasonable
demand of the Christian Jews that a person must become a Jew IN
ORDER to become a Christian... That would have killed
Christianity...
The Jews had the obedience of the Law, and needed only to
believe, but the Gentiles needed the obedience of the Faith in
order to find their Salvation...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10042--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: meshak Date: January 12, 2015, 1:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg10033#msg10033
date=1421033816]
What then do you do with the Scripture that tells us that we are
Baptized into Christ?
Arsenios
[/quote]
We are Baptized into Christ if we devote ourselves to Jesus and
His teachings to obey.
God is seeking into our hearts.
#Post#: 10043--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 12, 2015, 2:09 am
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[QUOTE=mESHAK]
We are Baptized into Christ
if we devote ourselves to Jesus and His teachings
to obey.
[/QUOTE]
The Orthodox Christian Faith baptizes you as Christ was
baptized...
We believe that this is how Christ wants you baptized...
BY the Apostolic Body of Christ,
AS He commanded His Apostles
To BAPTIZE the Nations...
We follow Christ by being baptized in His Baptism...
In water...
Not self-baptizing by obeying Bible...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10049--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: meshak Date: January 12, 2015, 11:59 am
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg10043#msg10043
date=1421050159]
The Orthodox Christian Faith baptizes you as Christ was
baptized...
We believe that this is how Christ wants you baptized...
BY the Apostolic Body of Christ,
AS He commanded His Apostles
To BAPTIZE the Nations...
We follow Christ by being baptized in His Baptism...
In water...
Not self-baptizing by obeying Bible...
Arsenios
[/quote]
Ok, that's your faith. I am just fine with Jesus with me.
When I evangelize in Okinawa, I tell them that they don't have
to attend the church to be God's children.
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