DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Love God Only
HTML https://lovegodonly.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Things of the Spirit
*****************************************************
#Post#: 9995--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 9, 2015, 10:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Meshak][quote=Arsenios]So it is knowledge...[/quote]
Jesus says to obey Him. Obeying is action, not just
knowledge.[/Quote]
So are you saying that Salvation IS knowledge plus obedience?
Or is it true that these are not what Salvation IS, but are
instead, at least in part, what is needed to attain it?
[quote]The knowledge Jesus taught us to learn...[/quote]
He taught us many things - The Beattitudes, for instance...
Are the Beattitudes commands from Christ for us?
[quote]See the above, just having knowledge and wont act what
you learn make you a hypocrite.
Jesus hates hypocrisy and hypocrites will not inherit Gods
kingdom.[/quote]
So now do you think that knowledge plus obedience plus don't be
hypocrite IS Salvation?
[quote]The knowledge we know by results...
Fruit is what we practice. It is not so hard to see.[/quote]
Plus fruitful results?
What IS Salvation, Meshak?
You seem to want to point out OTHER PEOPLE's sins here, but I am
asking what Salvation IS...
[quote]So lots of OTHER PEOPLE do NOT have this knowledge...
It is very clear that they don't want to know what Jesus teaches
because His teachings are not complicated at all.
It is simple and clear that even children understand.[/quote]
So Jesus teaches, and we obey, so we can find Salvation...
So what IS the Salvation we are to FIND by obeying Christ??
[quote]And IF we do not confront OTHER PEOPLE we are ENABLERS of
wickedness...[/quote]
Well, we can spend our lives telling OTHER PEOPLE how WICKED
THEY are...
Did Jesus teach us to do this?
[quote]I am informing the world.[/quote]
You seem to have dedicated your life to telling other people how
awful they are...
Is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
[quote]It does not worth confronting individuals since it is
organizational sins.
It is approved by their leaders.[/quote]
The world is saturated in sins... Do you wish to proclaim the
Gospel of Christ?
Or do you wish to criticize and condemn those for whom Christ
died on the Cross?
[quote]Because the Christianity we see in others is not what we
KNOW...
It is the fruit that evil and phony churches spreading to the
world.[/quote]
Christ died for sinners...
[quote]What His followers need to is to spread Jesus' teachings
to the world. Have you done that?
I am an evangelist and have been spreading Jesus' teachings to
my native country,
Okinawa, Japan since I became Jesus' follower 14 years
ago.[/quote]
Why don't you do that here too?
[quote]Informing the world that what we see in the world is not
true Christianity is not condemnation.
I know that what most organized churches are claiming to silence
the truth.[/quote]
Then you are condemning others rather than helping them...
[quote]I repeat what I said in previous post. Salvation is to
know God and Jesus and following all Jesus teachings. Without
following Jesus' teachings, there is no salvation, period.
You seem to believe Jesus was sent to give you license to
sin. Your faith is not much different from protestants faith.
They devote to silence the truth like you are doing, brother.
Jesus was sent to teach us how to love God and love one
another. Without following Jesus' teachings, there is no
salvation.[/quote]
Then my question is unanswered. Again: What IS this Salvation
we attain by following Jesus' teachings?
If we obey and love one another, what is the Salvation we will
receive?
Arsenios
#Post#: 9996--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 10, 2015, 12:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Arsenios]
IF man could live without sinning,
would he need Salvation?[/quote]
[quote=Kerry]Why would he? He would already be a son of
God.[/quote]
Like Adam was prior to his sin?
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of
God.
That is a misleading translation...
[quote]IF Adam had told the serpent to get lost:
Would Christ have incarnated?
Would He have been crucified?
This is speculation. Some of Adam's offspring most probably
would have erred. Thus there would still have been the need to
correct the errors. God had His plan in place from the
beginning however to handle such errors so that wrong decisions
are not permanent. [/quote]
It is a question... If FIRST MAN ADAM had not sinned, you see,
then we who are born in him would not be sinning... But through
that one man's sin, we have all sinned...
[quote]The only action I know is to repentance, turning away
from the evil urge and wanting to do good. If we do that, God
does the rest.[/quote]
[quote]Can you tell me the Gospel of Jesus Christ in under 10
seconds standing on one foot?
We are made in the image and likeness of God and God is not
willing that any should perish. Sin is an illusion or delusion
where man is pretending not to be made in the image and likeness
of God. If we wish to honor the image and likeness of God in
which we were made, God has made it possible no matter what our
condition may be at the moment. [/quote]
That was 21 seconds, so NO CIGAR!
Actually, I was thinking that the Good News is the PRESENCE of
the Kingdom of Heaven, here and now...
And the further Good News that there is SOMETHING you can do
about it...
So here's the 10 second Gospel preached by John the Baptist, and
after him, by Christ Himself, and after Christ, by the Apostle
Peter:
Be ye repenting...
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is at hand!
Granted, they did not do it on one foot...
Arsenios
#Post#: 9997--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 10, 2015, 5:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9996#msg9996
date=1420871345]
Like Adam was prior to his sin?[/quote]No. Adam could and did
sin.
[quote]1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is
born of God.
That is a misleading translation...[/quote]It looks acceptable
to me. Young's Literal Translation has it:
every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not,
because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin,
because of God he hath been begotten.
[quote]It is a question... If FIRST MAN ADAM had not sinned,
you see, then we who are born in him would not be sinning...
But through that one man's sin, we have all sinned... [/quote]
That looks a bit like Augustine's reasoning that led him to
devising the Catholic dogma of "original sin." I reject
Augustine's idea on that as his own innovation without
precedent, although he may have been influenced by things Paul
wrote. I do not know why this idea got adopted by the
Catholics.
God does not look at our ancestors to judge us. We stand or
fall on our own deeds.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall
not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father
bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be
upon him.
Why would God punish the innocent for the sins of their parents?
We humans may like to think we can sin and others pay while we
escape scot-free; but surely that is not God's way. Indeed this
human way of thinking, of craving injustice that benefits us
while harming others, is indicative of the evil urge that does
not love neighbor as self. Are we not all guilty of this? Why
blame Adam then?
[quote]That was 21 seconds, so NO CIGAR!
Actually, I was thinking that the Good News is the PRESENCE of
the Kingdom of Heaven, here and now...
And the further Good News that there is SOMETHING you can do
about it...
So here's the 10 second Gospel preached by John the Baptist, and
after him, by Christ Himself, and after Christ, by the Apostle
Peter:
Be ye repenting...
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is at hand!
Granted, they did not do it on one foot...
[/quote]Can we repent of a sin Adam committed?
#Post#: 9998--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Laurie Date: January 10, 2015, 8:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Arsenios]So that Salvation is escape from sin and death,
yes?[/quote]
I don't see it as "escape"….more like deliverance, and it has
been done---salvation/redemption is the effect not the cause.
God did it through Christ because of His love for His
creation--His love is the cause. We don't need to BE saved. We
need to know we have BEEN saved/redeemed. We don't repent to be
saved….knowing we've been redeemed gives us the desire to turn
to God and to repent/change.
[quote=Arsenios]And condemnation would be to be trapped in sin
and death, yes?[/quote]
Sin has been dealt with….if one feels condemned, then they need
to know that they not need feel that way so they can move on to
seeking the truly loving Father and begin the transformation out
of death.
[quote=Arsenios]So the FULL penalty is here and now?
I have a kind of missionary heart, in that I seek to approach
folks who have no Bible beliefs at all, and draw them forth into
the Faith of Christ... (Only natural for me, because I was an
atheist my first 36 years of life - And useful now as more and
more people are turning from the Bible and from Church
attendance - So how to approach them? Waving a Bible at them
will only elicit their scorn...) So that I look to be able to
draw them forth in terms of their own understanding, rather than
trying to impose MY (Biblical) understanding upon
them...[/quote]
Well, for many years my own understanding was erroneous, and
there is much still to be learned---when God sees fit, I think.
I was led to believe that God is angry and that Christ's torture
and crucifixion was as an appeasement and substitution that
washed away my sins…that I just need to believe that and repent
to be saved, or else live an eternity of torture….I now know
that is an erroneous view of the atonement.
Sin(not sins) has been dealt with, by God, through Christ. God
is our Savior, Christ His instrument through which our salvation
is accomplished. God does NOT need to be reconciled to US---it
is WE who need to turn back to HIM.
[quote]So it looks as if you understand Salvation as a part of a
drama of crime and punishment and escape, where sin is the
crime, death the punishment, and the Death of Christ on the
Cross the escape from both... And if I have you aright, we are
being fully punished for the crime of our sins here and now, so
that Salvation is not some future event...
So that when I approach a non-believer and offer him or her
Salvation, I am offering an ESCAPE from their present life of
sin and death, yes?
Now there is, of course, a LOT TO Salvation, but our
understanding of "what it is" sets the stage for our living it,
you see...[/quote]
I hope you now see that crime and punishment, with Christ as the
escape, is NOT what I think! LOL!
[quote=Arsenios]And for a non-believer, to say it is escape
would seem to be saying that it is avoidance, and their reply
might be: "We are both committing what you call sins, and we
will both die..." What might be your response?[/quote]
The purpose of the atonement is not to save us from death, but
to save us "out of death" into life.
If one died for all… then all were dead. (2 Cor. 5:14)
For to this end Christ both died , and rose , and revived , that
he might be Lord both of the dead and living.(Rom 14:9)
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it
more abundantly.(John 10:10)
#Post#: 9999--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 10, 2015, 12:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Kerry][quote=Arsenios]Like Adam was prior to his
sin?[/quote]
No. Adam could and did sin. [/quote]
So can and do you and I...
You see, it is because he DID sin that so also do we... [Paul
said the same.] For through that ONE man sin ENTERED the
world... You saying that if Adam hadn't done so, one of his
kids doubtless WOULD HAVE done so is an assumption I would not
make... (for then only the sins of that one son's descendents
would be passed on, and the rest of us would be sinless... But
instead we have Cain and Abel...) Human nature changed with
Adam's sin... God cursed it, and the Serpent, and the ground...
It is because of his place as first created Man that his sin had
such consequences for all mankind, and it is why Christ is the
Second Adam - The second first-man... Because just as we are
first-born IN Adam, so also can we be RE-born into Christ...
Yet from the beginnings, God has been known by man [Abel and
those in his spiritual wake] and has also been turned from by
man [Cain and his spiritual progeny]...
[quote] 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit
sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because
he is born of God.
That is a misleading translation...
It looks acceptable to me. Young's Literal Translation has it:
every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not,
because his seed in him doth remain,
and he is not able to sin,
because of God he hath been begotten.[/quote]
BYZ –
πας ο
γεγεννημεν_
9;ς
εκ του θεου
αμαρτιαν ου
ποιει
Everyone begotten from God is not committing sin
οτι σπερμα
αυτου εν
αυτω μενει
because the Seed of Him in him is abiding,
και ου
δυναται
αμαρτανειν
and he is not able to be sinning
οτι εκ του
θεου
γεγεννηται
because from God he has been begotten
It does not mean that if you are begotten of God you cannot
sin...
It means that you cannot be sinning...
That has caused great confusion in the West...
[Quote] It is a question...
If FIRST MAN ADAM had not sinned, you see,
then we who are born in him would not be sinning...
But through that one man's sin, we have all sinned...
That looks a bit like Augustine's reasoning that led him to
devising the Catholic dogma of "original sin."
I reject Augustine's idea on that as his own innovation without
precedent,
although he may have been influenced by things Paul wrote.
I do not know why this idea got adopted by the
Catholics.[/Quote]
He is the Father of Apostatic Western Theology...
AND
He is a Saint in the Orthodox Church...
The Eastern Fathers do not have his doctrines on Adam's sin...
[Quote]God does not look at our ancestors to judge us.
We stand or fall on our own deeds.[/Quote]
Exactly so, and one is not a sinner until one sins...
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall
not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father
bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be
upon him.
The LXX has the present ongoing participle "is sinning" ὁ
ἁμαρτάνω... The old
English "sinneth" covers it somewhat, but modern English "sins",
even though the correct English present tense, CAN be understood
to mean "sins AT ALL"... When it does not mean this at all...
[quote]Why would God punish the innocent for the sins of their
parents?[/quote] We humans may like to think we can sin and
others pay while we escape scot-free; but surely that is not
God's way. Indeed this human way of thinking, of craving
injustice that benefits us while harming others, is indicative
of the evil urge that does not love neighbor as self. Are we
not all guilty of this? Why blame Adam then? [/quote]
Punishment for sins in this life of our falleness in a fallen
world ruled by demonic powers under God's supervision is
therapeutic...
Retribution is not God's way in this life, though one can argue
exceptions...
[quote] Actually, I was thinking that the Good News is the
PRESENCE of the Kingdom of Heaven, here and now...
And the further Good News that there is SOMETHING you can do
about it...
Be ye repenting...
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is at hand!
Can we repent of a sin Adam committed? [/quote]
We must, because we commit the same sin...
What IS that sin?
It is the sin of TURNING AWAY FROM GOD...
And the WAY of this sin is BROAD indeed!
But no, we do not have to repent of eating the apple...
Yet we are commanded to fast...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10000--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: meshak Date: January 10, 2015, 12:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9995#msg9995
date=1420865920]
So are you saying that Salvation IS knowledge plus
obedience?[/quote]
Obedience to Jesus. You seem to be doing this on purpose.
[quote]Are the Beattitudes commands from Christ for us?[/quote]
Yes, most of His teaching are in the beatitudes.
[quote]So now do you think that knowledge plus obedience plus
don't be hypocrite IS Salvation?[/quote]
You don't know what is hypocrite or not? When you say you are
Jesus' follower or a Christian yet you don't honor His teachings
is hypocrisy.
[quote]What IS Salvation, Meshak?[/quote]
I just told you. If you don't like what I offer, it is your
problem, not mine.
You seem to make simple salvation complicated as most
mainstreamers do. It is a grave sin to do that. Even children
understand Jesus' word.
You know, Jesus says have a faith like children. Children would
not understand your wordy explanation.
[quote]You seem to want to point out OTHER PEOPLE's sins here,
but I am asking what Salvation IS...[/quote]
I am informing the public what you are spreading is not true
Christianity.
I know you want to silence the truth but I am sorry, I will not
accommodate you.
I will skip the rest of your comments. You are too wordy.
I am simple Christian and I don't make simple salvation
complicated like you do.
blessings.
#Post#: 10001--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 10, 2015, 1:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[Quote=Laurie]
I don't see it [Salvation] as "escape"….more like deliverance,
and it has been done[/quote]
Good - So Salvation is Deliverance... From what? And to what?
And how?
[quote]---salvation/redemption is the effect not the
cause.[/quote]
OK - So God is the cause, and Salvation is the effect, and it is
a deliverance from what? (My understanding is that it is
deliverance from our enemies, but what is YOUR understanding?)
[quote]God did it through Christ because of His love for His
creation--His love is the cause.[/quote]
And as John wrote: "God Love IS..."
So does it not follow that God Himself is somehow the Cause of
our Salvation?
[quote]We don't need to BE saved.[/quote]
Even when our hearts are filled with all manner of both Good and
evil? That IS the Tree of Forbidden Fruit into which we are
born, yes?
[quote]We need to know we have BEEN saved/redeemed.[/quote]
Well, reassurance is nice - But in the heat of battle, the
soldier reverts to training...
Do we need training?
[quote]We don't repent to be saved….[/quote]
Then why did John the Baptist come forth in the Wilderness
proclaiming the Baptism of Repentance as the preparation for the
Baptism of the Lord? Do not sinners need repentance from their
sins, to make straight the Way of our God, in their own souls in
order to begin the purging of sin from their hearts? "Blessed
are the pure in heart..."
[quote]knowing we've been redeemed gives us the desire to turn
to God and to repent/change.[/quote]
It gives us the power to do so, to ascend from the initial
repentance, say to stop drinking, and to attain to God giving us
repentance unto His Glory... "Except God build the walls, in
vain do ye build them..." So that we must build with God...
[quote] And condemnation would be to be trapped in sin and
death, yes?
Sin has been dealt with….if one feels condemned, then they need
to know that they do not need feel that way so they can move on
to seeking the truly loving Father and begin the transformation
out of death.[/quote]
One of the difficulties in communicating here is addressing one
person, and then being replied to by another, who has a
differing understanding from the person initially addressed...
All I was doing was mirroring the other person's point of view
to establish that I understood them aright in THEIR
understanding... It is not mine...
Nevertheless, in reply to you, I must say that Christ did indeed
deal with ALL issues of ALL human sin in His human flesh, and by
this, He overcame death BY His suffering and death on the
Cross... But ONLY in HIS OWN BODY... The world is still filled
with sin and death... But His Body is not... And ONLY His
Body... And within the MEMBERS of His Body, only to the extent
that they have, within their own bodies, overcome their own sin
unto blood (death)... The living of a Life of Salvation in the
Body of our Lord is an ongoing struggle to the end... And it is
in our tribulations that we find the Peace of Christ which is
not of this world...
"for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
[quote]
Well, for many years my own understanding was erroneous, and
there is much still to be learned---when God sees fit, I think.
I was led to believe that God is angry and that Christ's torture
and crucifixion was as an appeasement and substitution that
washed away my sins…that I just need to believe that and repent
to be saved, or else live an eternity of torture….I now know
that is an erroneous view of the atonement.[/quote]
Amen to that!
[quote]Sin(not sins) has been dealt with, by God, through
Christ. God is our Savior, Christ His instrument through which
our salvation is accomplished. God does NOT need to be
reconciled to US---it is WE who need to turn back to
HIM.[/quote]
Indeed, sin has been dealt with by Christ in His Own Body...
And not in the world at large...
And not in all members of His Body...
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put
on Christ."
So that it is within the Body of Christ that we attain the
Promised Land...
And crossing the Jordan, we THEN encounter the Giants who hate
us...
And we have slingshots...
And we take down the great enemies of Christ...
[Quote] So it looks as if you understand Salvation as a part
of a drama of crime and punishment and escape, where sin is the
crime, death the punishment, and the Death of Christ on the
Cross the escape from both... And if I have you aright, we are
being fully punished for the crime of our sins here and now, so
that Salvation is not some future event...
So that when I approach a non-believer and offer him or her
Salvation, I am offering an ESCAPE from their present life of
sin and death, yes?
Now there is, of course, a LOT TO Salvation, but our
understanding of "what it is" sets the stage for our living it,
you see...
I hope you now see that crime and punishment, with Christ as the
escape, is NOT what I think! LOL![/Quote]
The asbestos suit of Christ, assuaging the infinite wrath of the
god of vengeance and retribution!
Not your schtick?
Proves what my dislexic friend likes to say: "There IS a Dog!"
[Quote] And for a non-believer, to say it is escape would
seem to be saying that it is avoidance, and their reply might
be: "We are both committing what you call sins, and we will both
die..." What might be your response?
The purpose of the atonement is not to save us from death, but
to save us "out of death" into life.
If one died for all… then all were dead. (2 Cor. 5:14)
For to this end Christ both died , and rose , and revived , that
he might be Lord both of the dead and living.(Rom 14:9)
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it
more abundantly.(John 10:10)
In my primitive and admittedly Neandertholic and
knuckle-dragging lethargy, I always co-equivocated "from death"
to "out of death"... "But who am I to face the odds? Of man's
bedevilment, and God's?" (recognize the author?) Besides, we
have the Scripture: "Whosoever is living and believing in Me
shall never die..." (John 11:26)
Arsenios
#Post#: 10002--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 10, 2015, 1:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=Meshak]
I am informing the public what you are spreading is not true
Christianity.
[/quote]
Forgive me for vexing you, my friend...
The purpose of this thread is to answer the question: "What is
Salvation"...
You indeed have answered that in your understanding it is
obedience to Christ...
And in my understanding, obedience to Christ is the WAY of
Salvation...
I did not initiate the thread to accuse others of their sins...
God bless you in the simplicity of your Faith...
You are ahead of me in the line of Salvation...
Arsenios
#Post#: 10008--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 10, 2015, 8:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9999#msg9999
date=1420915676]
You see, it is because he DID sin that so also do we... [Paul
said the same.] For through that ONE man sin ENTERED the
world... [/quote]Paul should be read cautiously as Peter
advised.
He's writing loosely there. Paul is not always precise. First
the word "sin" does not show up in Genesis about Adam or Eve.
Secondly, if we do call Adam's act a "sin," what do we call
Eve's act? Was that not also a sin? Did she not commit it
before Adam did? We can how loosely he writes because elsewhere
he says Eve was the first to be at fault and not Adam.
He also says only that sin entered the world that way. There is
no mention of inherited guilt as Augustine and some Protestants
seem to think. The most I can say is that Adam's act made the
evil urge in the world and in his children stronger. The evil
urge was stronger than the good in Cain while the good urge was
stronger in Abel; but Cain was born that way so he could master
it. God told him to. We also learn that if we do not master
the evil urge in ourselves, it will rise and may master us.
[quote]You saying that if Adam hadn't done so, one of his kids
doubtless WOULD HAVE done so is an assumption I would not
make... (for then only the sins of that one son's descendents
would be passed on, and the rest of us would be sinless... But
instead we have Cain and Abel...) Human nature changed with
Adam's sin... God cursed it, and the Serpent, and the ground...
It is because of his place as first created Man that his sin had
such consequences for all mankind, and it is why Christ is the
Second Adam - The second first-man... Because just as we are
first-born IN Adam, so also can we be RE-born into
Christ...[/quote]You grant the serpent a great deal of power
then. If you carry that thought far enough, you may even think
the serpent is more powerful than God. You may even think the
serpent wasn't supposed to be in Eden but managed to slither in
against God's Will.
We read that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the
world. If Adam had not sinned and none of his offspring, what
need would there have been to have Jesus as the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world?
What we should believe is that hadam, the-man, was made poised
equally between the good and evil urges. Hadam was not good
since he was not finished. God does not pronounce hadam "good."
He was not good. He was not yet finished. He was to choose
good over evil and finish himself. If he chose correctly, God
could reward him by imparting Goodness to him.
When Adam and Eve chose evil, it altered things, yes, but Cain
and Abel were still able to choose. It made things harder,
that's what happened. The evil urge became stronger. All of us
in this world still have the same power to make it easier or
harder for others. That does not mean we have the power to
change them.
Even personally in our own lives, if we choose good, we find the
good urge becoming stronger and the urge to evil weaker. If we
choose evil, we are giving more strength to the evil urge and
the urge to do good gets weaker.
Whatever we can say, it seems clear to me that Adam was able to
sin. Thus he was not yet born as a son of God in a certain way.
In one way, yes, but in another way no.
[quote]Yet from the beginnings, God has been known by man [Abel
and those in his spiritual wake] and has also been turned from
by man [Cain and his spiritual progeny]...[/quote]Eve said Cain
was a gift from the LORD. So he was too.
[quote]BYZ –
πας ο
γεγεννημεν_
9;ς
εκ του θεου
αμαρτιαν ου
ποιει
Everyone begotten from God is not committing sin
οτι σπερμα
αυτου εν
αυτω μενει
because the Seed of Him in him is abiding,
και ου
δυναται
αμαρτανειν
and he is not able to be sinning
οτι εκ του
θεου
γεγεννηται
because from God he has been begotten
It does not mean that if you are begotten of God you cannot
sin...
It means that you cannot be sinning...
That has caused great confusion in the West...[/quote]
It says you cannot be committing sin, unable to be sinning. Now
logically, if you are unable to sin, you cannot sin. I don't
see your point. There are some mistakes it's almost
impossible to make if you know what you're doing. Dogs drink
antifreeze because it tastes good. Most humans wouldn't even
taste it since they know it's poison. I think sin is like that.
If you really understand it, you won't do it -- you won't even
be tempted to do it.
[quote]He is the Father of Apostatic Western Theology...
AND
He is a Saint in the Orthodox Church...
The Eastern Fathers do not have his doctrines on Adam's
sin...[/quote]
If you know how the Orthodox Church canonizes people and
proclaims them saints, I wouldn't say this means that much. I
had a man studying to be an Orthodox priest say he wished he had
never been made a saint in the Orthodox calendar. His opinions
are not those of a saint if you ask me.
[quote]Exactly so, and one is not a sinner until one sins...
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall
not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father
bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be
upon him.
The LXX has the present ongoing participle "is sinning" ὁ
ἁμαρτάνω... The old
English "sinneth" covers it somewhat, but modern English "sins",
even though the correct English present tense, CAN be understood
to mean "sins AT ALL"... When it does not mean this at
all...[/quote]
I read it in the simple present tense. You can compare it to
the person who has repented of all his known sins, confessed
them, and did his best to correct them by penance. Such a
person is not going to have his past sins remembered against
him. His current state is what matters; and maintaining that
state of righteousness too by repenting as quickly as possible
when he realizes he was in error.
[quote]Punishment for sins in this life of our falleness in a
fallen world ruled by demonic powers under God's supervision is
therapeutic...
Retribution is not God's way in this life, though one can argue
exceptions...[/quote]
Satan has no power at all except what men and women give him.
God would never allow His creation man to be ruled by demonic
powers . . . unless man himself wanted it that way. God gave
dominion over the earth to man; and it's still that way.
Nothing's changed. If we choose poorly, we are inviting the
demonic to have more influence or power. We can't blame the
demons for that. God isn't doing it to us; and at no time did He
abandon mankind to be allowed to be the playthings of Satan.
What I would say is therapeutic is that God allows demons to
afflict us if that is our choice. If we want to be like little
children banging our heads on a wall in frustration blaming
either God or the Devil, God will let us keep banging our heads.
We have free will, so He will allow it.
[quote]We must, because we commit the same sin...
What IS that sin?
It is the sin of TURNING AWAY FROM GOD...
And the WAY of this sin is BROAD indeed!
But no, we do not have to repent of eating the apple...
Yet we are commanded to fast...[/quote]
Was that Adam's mistake? I am not so sure. Did God tell him to
cleave to Eve? Now what would you do if God told you to be
faithful to a woman and she sinned and was about to be cast out
of Eden? How could you obey God and cleave to her if she
wasn't with you? Adam also said, "Therefore shall a man leave
his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and
they shall be one flesh."
It looks to me as if Adam's offense was different from Eve's. I
see Adam as willing to fall under the sentence of death himself
so he could be with Eve. Was that a sin? I don't know.
Genesis doesn't call it that. Would Adam and Eve have had any
children if Adam had not also eaten the forbidden fruit and
shared Eve's fate? Perhaps the fate of the whole human race
depended on it. Perhaps Adam's motive was love for Eve and
offspring not born yet?
Perhaps either way, he had to disobey God. He could eat along
with Eve or he could fail to cleave to her. Perhaps he was also
willing to lay down his life so he could obey the commandment to
be fruitful and multiply.
#Post#: 10009--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Mike Date: January 10, 2015, 11:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
IMO you 'guys' are creating God in your own image....just like
we all do, (whether we do so using the Bible as a tool or
whether we do so by other means).
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page