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#Post#: 9969--------------------------------------------------
What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 8, 2015, 11:04 pm
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Is it forgiveness of sins?
Is it escape from punishment for one's sins?
Is it related to sin at all?
Is it entirely something else?
"For by Grace are ye saved through the Faith
And that not of yourselves...
Of God the Gift..."
What Gift is Salvation?
Arsenios
#Post#: 9973--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Laurie Date: January 9, 2015, 6:20 am
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Hello, Arsenios….and welcome!
The way I see it, we are saved from sin itself and saved out of
death.
If the wage of sin=death….then we are in that death state
because of sin….so there is no future penalty from which we need
an escape.
#Post#: 9976--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: meshak Date: January 9, 2015, 8:28 am
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9969#msg9969
date=1420779884]
Is it forgiveness of sins?
Is it escape from punishment for one's sins?
Is it related to sin at all?
Is it entirely something else?
"For by Grace are ye saved through the Faith
And that not of yourselves...
Of God the Gift..."
What Gift is Salvation?
Arsenios
[/quote]
Salvation is knowing we are all wicked and need Jesus' teachings
to correct our wickedness.
Jesus was sent to teach us how to love God and love one another.
Jesus says we know them by their fruit.
We see most wicked churches' ungodly and worldly practice by
being political, and approving to kill their enemy: this is not
so hard to see yet they keep on believing how godly they are.
We are being enablers of wicked churches if we keep silent about
this wicked practice.
The world needs to know that what we see in the world is not
true Christianity.
#Post#: 9980--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 9, 2015, 10:49 am
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>>Hello, Arsenios….and welcome!
Thank-you - I am still working out the mechanics of posting
here...
>>The way I see it, we are saved from sin itself and saved out
of death.
So that Salvation is escape from sin and death, yes?
And condemnation would be to be trapped in sin and death, yes?
>>If the wage of sin=death…
The Bible says so...
>>then we are in that death state because of sin….
Yes, IF you believe the Bible...
>>so there is no future penalty from which we need an escape.
So the FULL penalty is here and now?
I have a kind of missionary heart, in that I seek to approach
folks who have no Bible beliefs at all, and draw them forth into
the Faith of Christ... (Only natural for me, because I was an
atheist my first 36 years of life - And useful now as more and
more people are turning from the Bible and from Church
attendance - So how to approach them? Waving a Bible at them
will only elicit their scorn...) So that I look to be able to
draw them forth in terms of their own understanding, rather than
trying to impose MY (Biblical) understanding upon them...
So it looks as if you understand Salvation as a part of a drama
of crime and punishment and escape, where sin is the crime,
death the punishment, and the Death of Christ on the Cross the
escape from both... And if I have you aright, we are being
fully punished for the crime of our sins here and now, so that
Salvation is not some future event...
So that when I approach a non-believer and offer him or her
Salvation, I am offering an ESCAPE from their present life of
sin and death, yes?
Now there is, of course, a LOT TO Salvation, but our
understanding of "what it is" sets the stage for our living it,
you see...
And for a non-believer, to say it is escape would seem to be
saying that it is avoidance, and their reply might be: "We are
both committing what you call sins, and we will both die..."
What might be your response?
Arsenios
#Post#: 9981--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 9, 2015, 11:00 am
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Meshak wrote:
>>Salvation is knowing we are all wicked and need Jesus'
teachings to correct our wickedness.
So it is knowledge...
>>Jesus was sent to teach us how to love God and love one
another.
The knowledge Jesus taught us to learn...
>>Jesus says we know them by their fruit.
The knowledge we know by results...
>>We see most wicked churches' ungodly and worldly practice by
being political,
>>and approving to kill their enemy:
>>this is not so hard to see yet they keep on believing how
godly they are.
So lots of OTHER PEOPLE do NOT have this knowledge...
>>We are being enablers of wicked churches if we keep silent
about this wicked practice.
And IF we do not confront OTHER PEOPLE we are ENABLERS of
wickedness...
>>The world needs to know that what we see in the world is not
true Christianity.
Because the Christianity we see in others is not what we KNOW...
And can doubtless be proved by Biblical citations...
So IF Salvation is KNOWLEDGE, then HOW is it IMPARTED?
And if condemnation is IGNORANCE, how is it overcome?
And MY question for both, is this:
IS Salvation knowledge OR escape?
OR is it something more than these?
Arsenios
#Post#: 9984--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: meshak Date: January 9, 2015, 1:27 pm
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9981#msg9981
date=1420822826]
Meshak wrote:[/quote]
So it is knowledge...[/quote]
Jesus says to obey Him. Obeying is action, not just
knowledge.
[quote]
The knowledge Jesus taught us to learn...[/quote]
see the above, just having knowledge and wont act what you learn
make you a hypocrite. Jesus hates hypocrisy and hypocrites will
not inherit Gods kingdom.
[quote]The knowledge we know by results...[/quote]
Fruit is what we practice. It is not so hard to see.
[quote]So lots of OTHER PEOPLE do NOT have this
knowledge...[/quote]
It is very clear that they don't want to know what Jesus teaches
because His teachings are not complicated at all. It is simple
and clear that even children understand.
[quote]And IF we do not confront OTHER PEOPLE we are ENABLERS of
wickedness...[/quote]
I am informing the world. It does not worth confronting
individuals since it is organizational sins. It is approved by
their leaders.
[quote]Because the Christianity we see in others is not what we
KNOW...[/quote]
It is the fruit that evil and phony churches spreading to the
world.
[quote]And can doubtless be proved by Biblical
citations...[/quote]
The world don't know the Bible. What His followers need to is
to spread Jesus' teachings to the world. Have you done that?
I am an evangelist and have been spreading Jesus' teachings to
my native country, Okinawa, Japan since I became Jesus' follower
14 years ago.
[quote]So IF Salvation is KNOWLEDGE, then HOW is it
IMPARTED?[/quote]
It is what you seem to believe, it is not what said.
[quote]And if condemnation is IGNORANCE, how is it
overcome?[/quote]
Informing the world that what we see in the world is not true
Christianity is not condemnation. I know that what most
organized churches are claiming to silence the truth.
[quote]And MY question for both, is this:
IS Salvation knowledge OR escape?[/quote
You are repeating your faith, it is not mine.
[quote]OR is it something more than these?
Arsenios
[/quote]
I repeat what I said in previous post. Salvation is to know God
and Jesus and following all Jesus teachings. Without following
Jesus' teachings, there is no salvation, period.
You seem to believe Jesus was sent to give you license to sin.
Your faith is not much different from protestants faith. They
devote to silence the truth like you are doing, brother.
Jesus was sent to teach us how to love God and love one another.
Without following Jesus' teachings, there is no salvation.
#Post#: 9990--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 9, 2015, 9:24 pm
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9980#msg9980
date=1420822150]
Thank-you - I am still working out the mechanics of posting
here...[/quote]
You can always play around with things and hit "preview" to see
how things turned out. As long as you don't click on "post",
whatever you type won't show up.
#Post#: 9991--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 9, 2015, 9:44 pm
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9969#msg9969
date=1420779884]
Is it forgiveness of sins?[/quote]
More than that. It's removing the urge to sin. As long as we
still have the urge to sin and keep sinning, what good does it
do to have past sins forgiven?
[quote]Is it escape from punishment for one's sins?
Is it related to sin at all?
Is it entirely something else?[/quote]
Salvation involves being liberated from slavery to evil urges
which injure ourselves and others.
[quote]"For by Grace are ye saved through the Faith
And that not of yourselves...
Of God the Gift..."
What Gift is Salvation?[/quote]People can get into such deep
holes they can't dig themselves out. You can also think of it
as racking up such a big debt, you couldn't pay it off even if
you worked day and night. Paul says it's by grace because God
isn't obligated to help us. It cannot be by works either since
we've dug the hole so deep we can't get out by ourselves.
God still requires us to do certain things however. Works are
required after we receive the help we need.
Suppose you met someone who lost his job and who lives on the
street because of drinking. He can't get a job because he has
no address, no place to take a shower, etc. So you take him,
pay off his bills, give him a place to live and so on. He can
get back on his feet. He can have dignity again. He can get
another job because you made it possible for him. If he wants
to be lazy and not get a job, if he wants to have you take care
of him eternally, he didn't understand your purpose in helping
him. He wants to abuse your kindness; and if we want to think
we can ignore works, we are like him. We haven't really
changed. We want to keep sinning and have God fix things for us
forever. I don't think that works. God wants us to change for
the better.
We can know by our deeds if we are on the track of being saved.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love
of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
#Post#: 9992--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Arsenios Date: January 9, 2015, 10:18 pm
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Kerry wrote:
>> [Salvation is] More than that. [Forgiveness of sins.]
>> It's removing the urge to sin.
>> As long as we still have the urge to sin and keep sinning,
>> what good does it do to have past sins forgiven?
IF man could live without sinning,
would he need Salvation?
IF Adam had told the serpent to get lost:
Would Christ have incarnated?
Would He have been crucified?
>> We can know by our deeds
>> if we are on the track of being saved.
Can we DO deeds that will place us on that track?
Does the Gospel of Jesus Christ answer this question?
Can you tell me the Gospel of Jesus Christ in under 10 seconds
standing on one foot?
Arsenios
#Post#: 9993--------------------------------------------------
Re: What IS Salvation?
By: Kerry Date: January 9, 2015, 10:37 pm
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[quote author=Arsenios link=topic=960.msg9992#msg9992
date=1420863512]
Kerry wrote:
>> [Salvation is] More than that. [Forgiveness of sins.]
>> It's removing the urge to sin.
>> As long as we still have the urge to sin and keep sinning,
>> what good does it do to have past sins forgiven?
IF man could live without sinning,
would he need Salvation?[/quote]Why would he? He would already
be a son of God.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of
God.
[quote]IF Adam had told the serpent to get lost:
Would Christ have incarnated?
Would He have been crucified?[/quote]This is speculation. Some
of Adam's offspring most probably would have erred. Thus there
would still have been the need to correct the errors. God had
His plan in place from the beginning however to handle such
errors so that wrong decisions are not permanent.
[quote]>> We can know by our deeds
>> if we are on the track of being saved.
Can we DO deeds that will place us on that track?[/quote]
I wouldn't know about that. The only action I know is to
repentance, turning away from the evil urge and wanting to do
good. If we do that, God does the rest.
[quote]Does the Gospel of Jesus Christ answer this question?
Can you tell me the Gospel of Jesus Christ in under 10 seconds
standing on one foot?[/quote]
We are made in the image and likeness of God and God is not
willing that any should perish. Sin is an illusion or delusion
where man is pretending not to be made in the image and likeness
of God. If we wish to honor the image and likeness of God in
which we were made, God has made it possible no matter what our
condition may be at the moment.
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