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#Post#: 9634--------------------------------------------------
Hagar
By: Kerry Date: November 30, 2014, 9:55 am
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I don't wonder why Sarah made Hagar and Ishmael leave; but I do
wonder about how they were forced to leave.
Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which
she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and
her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my
son, even with Isaac.
11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of
his son.
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy
sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all
that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in
Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation,
because he is thy seed.
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and
a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her
shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed,
and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Bread and water? That is all? No money? No men to protect
her and the child? I don't understand this because earlier
we're told Abraham cared about Ishmael and didn't want to send
him away; but here he seems almost heartless. True, he had
God's promise that Ishmael would survive, but would it have been
a sin to give them more than bread and water?
15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child
under one of the shrubs.
Why? So she wouldn't see him die, we learn:
16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way
off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the
death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up
her voice, and wept.
Is this not sad?
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God
called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth
thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad
where he is.
18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I
will make him a great nation.
19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she
went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the
wilderness, and became an archer.
21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took
him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
Note that it does not say Hagar prayed. The Jewish tradition
says she was still a pagan at this time; and they say too that
her "wandering in the wilderness" was spiritual as well as
physical. So we see Ishmael's crying being heard and then God
appearning to Hagar.
Now what think you of this? Was it not harsh of both Sarah and
Abraham to treat Hagar and Ishmael so? They say what goes
around comes around. Now skip forward to the story about the
binding of Isaac. The two stories are similar.
Hagar takes Ishmael into the wilderness. Abraham takes Isaac to
a mountain. There is a difference there though since Abraham
had some servants with him for part of his journey. They also
had animals to ride and food to eat since we are not told they
were hungry. So far, Abraham had it easier than Hagar did.
Then Hagar hides Ishmael and goes a distance since she doesn't
want to see him die as she expected. Here Abraham has it
harder since he's not sure if God is going to require him to
kill Isaac; but both parents are facing the possible death of
their children.
Then both Hagar and Abraham hear the Voice of God. Hagar sees a
well while Abraham sees a ram. Both children are predicted to
become nations. Both children then marry; and Isaac marries
someone from his own clan while Ishmael gets a wife from Egypt,
the land his mother came from.
#Post#: 9637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Brad Date: December 1, 2014, 10:09 am
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My guess is that Ishmael did speak to the Lord asking for help,
not just cried out as in sobbing. He saw his fathers faith,
and tried to copy it. That being said, it might well have been
the first time he called on the Lord, as he was not as
interested in spiritual things, he only called when there was no
other hope. But his mother on the other hand, despite being
around the family of faith, was not talking to the Lord. So it
didnt rub off on her.
But Ishmael's faith didnt seem to amount to much, as he got
stronger, he went back to putting his trust in his own strength.
#Post#: 9638--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Runner Date: December 1, 2014, 2:19 pm
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Interesting. If we go back earlier...
Maybe she was thrown out because she wasn't a 'nice' person to
live with?
She had been told by the Lord to submit herself to Sarah...but
she didn't, she mocked her , until Sarah threw her out.
She did know the Lord as four times the lord spoke to her..
She wouldn't have had to wander in the wilderness if she had
obeyed the angel of the Lord, and submitted to her mistress. I
am sure her bitterness toward her mistress was seen by the
teenage boy and he probably disliked his little brother because
of it. She passed on her attitude. So I believe much of her life
was brought about by resentment and disregard for the advice of
the Lord.
Gen 16: 4 And he (Abraham) went in unto Hagar, and she
conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress
was despised in her eyes.
And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given
my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived,
I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.
6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand;
do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with
her, she fled from her face. 7 And the angel of the Lord found
her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in
the way to Shur.
8 And he said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and
whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my
mistress Sarai."
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy
mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 And the angel
of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly,
that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel
of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt
bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord
hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his
hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against
him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her,
"Thou God seest me": for she said, 'Have I also here looked
after Him that seeth me?'
14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is
between Kadesh and Bered. 15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: etc
etc...
#Post#: 9640--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Kerry Date: December 1, 2014, 3:44 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=916.msg9638#msg9638
date=1417465196]
Interesting. If we go back earlier...
Maybe she was thrown out because she wasn't a 'nice' person to
live with?
She had been told by the Lord to submit herself to Sarah...but
she didn't, she mocked her , until Sarah threw her out.
She did know the Lord as four times the lord spoke to
her..[/quote]
I'm not sure Hagar mocked Sarah.
[quote]She wouldn't have had to wander in the wilderness if she
had obeyed the angel of the Lord, and submitted to her mistress.
I am sure her bitterness toward her mistress was seen by the
teenage boy and he probably disliked his little brother because
of it. She passed on her attitude. So I believe much of her life
was brought about by resentment and disregard for the advice of
the Lord.
Gen 16: 4 And he (Abraham) went in unto Hagar, and she
conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress
was despised in her eyes.
And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given
my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived,
I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.
6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand;
do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with
her, she fled from her face. 7 And the angel of the Lord found
her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in
the way to Shur.[/quote]
The word "despised" there can mean anything from slighting
someone to cursing him. Notice too that the text says Sarah
"saw" she was "despised." Perhaps Sarah was misinterpreting
things as people do when they're insecure. Perhaps Hagar was
only slighting Sarah a little but Sarah misread it and thought
she was despised? Perhaps it was all in Sarah's head?
Hagar also would have known that since she lacked the legal
status of wife, she could be thrown out on her own while
Abraham kept Ishmael. This could have made uncomfortable around
Abraham and Sarah; and if Sarah picked up on that, she may have
misread things.
I do think Hagar tried to submit to Sarah. The Rabbis say that
she "reverted" to pagan gods when thrown out the second time.
That would mean she had been worshiping the real God after her
first encounter with an angel; and perhaps she felt abandoned by
God when she was thrown out again with Ishmael. So she began
to doubt God. I agree that Ishmael probably "inherited" some of
the same tendencies.
[quote]8 And he said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou?
and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of
my mistress Sarai."
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy
mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 And the angel
of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly,
that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel
of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt
bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord
hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his
hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against
him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her,
"Thou God seest me": for she said, 'Have I also here looked
after Him that seeth me?'
14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is
between Kadesh and Bered. 15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: etc
etc...
[/quote]It is said that after Sarah died, Isaac helped patch up
things between his father and Hagar. Indeed it's said in the
oral tradition that Abraham married her and she was renamed
Keturah. That name means "incense" and as it was explained to
me, Hagar's life had been bitter but had been changed to
something sweeter like the fragrance of incense.
The Bible seems to contradict itself by calling Keturah a wife
in one place and a concubine in another; but at first she was
only a concubine; but after Sarah died, she became a wife.
Genesis 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was
Keturah.
1Chronicles 1:32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine:
she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak,
and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan.
#Post#: 9641--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Kerry Date: December 1, 2014, 3:49 pm
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[quote author=Brad link=topic=916.msg9637#msg9637
date=1417450175]
My guess is that Ishmael did speak to the Lord asking for help,
not just cried out as in sobbing. He saw his fathers faith,
and tried to copy it. That being said, it might well have been
the first time he called on the Lord, as he was not as
interested in spiritual things, he only called when there was no
other hope. But his mother on the other hand, despite being
around the family of faith, was not talking to the Lord. So it
didnt rub off on her.
But Ishmael's faith didnt seem to amount to much, as he got
stronger, he went back to putting his trust in his own
strength.[/quote]How does the story end? In the end, Ishmael
and Isaac are seen together to bury Abraham. If the Jewish
story about Isaac playing peacemaker between Abraham and Hagar
is true, that would have inclined Ishmael also to forgive and
forget.
#Post#: 9642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Brad Date: December 1, 2014, 10:44 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=916.msg9641#msg9641
date=1417470548]
How does the story end? In the end, Ishmael and Isaac are
seen together to bury Abraham. If the Jewish story about Isaac
playing peacemaker between Abraham and Hagar is true, that
would have inclined Ishmael also to forgive and forget.
[/quote]
Well, she did seem to influence Ishmael greatly. It would have
been nice if he buried his grievances at not being the no. 1 son
spiritually.
#Post#: 9657--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: George Date: December 4, 2014, 2:28 pm
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This is off topic yet on the same subject, It is believed by
Muslims that Islam(In its purest form) is this nation that God
promised of Ishmael. What says thee of this claim?
#Post#: 9664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Kerry Date: December 5, 2014, 6:11 pm
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^ Most mosques have no discrimination by race, nationality, etc.
Some are so concerned about not allowing discrimination sprout
up that they don't allow people to choose their spot when
praying. Your spot in the mosque depends on when you entered.
The first person in always takes one spot, the next person is
always next to him, and so on. That way can't arrange
themselves in the mosque by groups.
Some do see Islam as connected with Ishmael though. In some
places, a darker skin lets people know your ancestors probably
were mixed in with slaves from Africa. I'm not sure how
Muslims really think about it. On one hand they seem to say
race and nationality don't matter; but then they tend to connect
Islam to Ishmael.
#Post#: 9755--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: coldwar Date: December 25, 2014, 9:46 am
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I think Abraham knew that what he gave Hagar would become
sufficient, perhaps somehow knowing that her journey would bring
her to faith, which indeed it did. In fact, you could look at
the bread and water as Christ's body and blood, remembering how
Christ spent 40 days with no bread or water in the wilderness,
and angels ministered to him also, as they did for Hagar.
#Post#: 9761--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hagar
By: Kerry Date: December 25, 2014, 7:07 pm
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[quote author=coldwar link=topic=916.msg9755#msg9755
date=1419522378]
I think Abraham knew that what he gave Hagar would become
sufficient, perhaps somehow knowing that her journey would bring
her to faith, which indeed it did. In fact, you could look at
the bread and water as Christ's body and blood, remembering how
Christ spent 40 days with no bread or water in the wilderness,
and angels ministered to him also, as they did for Hagar.
[/quote]I can't go that far. I would say that God can use the
evil we do for the good. I also believe that we humans can use
the evil in the world and turn it into the good.
Thinking about this more, I still think Abraham was callous,
perhaps out of feeling flustered, but it suggests to me that
Hagar and Ishmael didn't hold a grudge against him since they
were eventually reconciled with him. When we forgive or are
willing to exert a forgiving influence, I think God can work
through us as He worked through Joseph. The evil his brothers
intended was turned into the good -- but only because Joseph was
willing to forgive them and to allow God to work.
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