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#Post#: 9622--------------------------------------------------
Just a chat
By: Runner Date: November 28, 2014, 2:29 pm
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Kerry, where do you stand on the subject of UR?
I wonder why it makes so many people so angry? I can understand
people saying-
"Sounds good, I would love it to be true, but I can't believe
it." What I don't understand is why so many get bent out of
shape about it.
I think the Rapture doctrine is a load of rubbish, but it
doesn't 'make me angry'.
People get cross and angry about the Gifts of the Spirit, about
speaking in tongues, but the worst seems to be over UR!!
I don't understand why people would rather choose to believe
that God is still ANGRY after sending Jesus to redeem mankind.
I know you can " outscripture" me any time.
I am not looking for a deep discussion...just a easy chat of
short responses...if you have any. Thanks.
#Post#: 9623--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: Kerry Date: November 28, 2014, 3:47 pm
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I think there may be a handful of people who won't be saved, but
only a very small handful. The way I see it, the only people
who can't be saved are those no one else cares about. If you
have even one person who loves you, then surely God also does.
God has to love more than we do. Yes, I think the love, the
prayers and hopes of just one person will eventually pay off.
Love never fails.
I also think the people who will be lost almost wish for it.
They hate themselves. While they may not want to go out of
existence, pride is more important to them -- they'd rather go
out of existence than admit they were wrong for being completely
evil, completely selfish people.
The idea that God created billions of people that would be
damned is silliness to me. If He is not willing that any
should perish, why would He create so many people that He knew
couldn't be saved? It doesn't make sense to me.
By the way, I don't think God was ever angry with people. It
surely can feel that way -- and the Bible often uses human words
to describe things in a way that people can relate to. If God
was angry, why send Jesus? If I was angry at you, why would I
do anything to help you?
I do think though that being in the Presence of God if we feel
unworthy makes us feel as if He's angry. It also makes us feel
guilty and unworthy. I think that's the reason nothing impure
can exist in His Presence. It would vanish -- burned away.
So God keeps us at a distance until our impurities are taken
care of. I see Jesus' role as helping remove those things from
us that would make us be consumed by fire if we were prematurely
in the Presence.
Why are people upset? Maybe there could be different reasons.
One that comes to mind is that that maybe they are angry anyway
at sinners. They may want them punished. They may not think
it's fair if they're trying so hard to be good that others can
be sinning and still wind up saved. If that's the case, I'd
say they don't understand mercy and forgiveness -- and may feel
guilty and unworthy themselves -- even while trying so hard to
be good.
Almost for sure, people who believe in eternal punishment would
misread the passage, "an eye for eye" the way Jesus said some
people read it in his day. They read it to mean, you must be
punished by having your eye gouged out if you gouged out an eye.
That's not what it means. It means the punishment cannot be
more severe than the crime. It can be less, but it can't be
more. So why would God punish people eternally for whatever
sins they did in their years alive in human bodies? This view
of God imagines that God is outraged by our sins and outraged
that we disobeyed Him. That is how some human fathers may be;
but it's not how God is. If God was going to get outraged by
people disobeying Him, it's His own fault for giving people free
will. What a thought! I say God gave us free will and He is
not like a dictator who gets upset if we "disobey." I say God
is sad when we disobey because we're injuring either others or
ourselves.
I also wonder at times how people's theology may be shaped by
their human fathers. Do people with dictator-like human fathers
imagine God is like that? I also wonder if children with
brutal fathers could believe their fathers truly loved them?
Children may pretend to love such fathers, but do they?
People who get upset by UR make me wonder about a lot of things.
Are they pretending to love God hoping to fool Him because they
think he's like their human father? Or are they like
dictators themselves? Do they see that as the "right" way to
be, so they think God is like that?
Whatever the reason, there is something psychological at work if
people get angry.
#Post#: 9626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: guest6 Date: November 28, 2014, 5:43 pm
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UR makes more sense to me. I was hindered for many years to feel
close to God when I viewed him as an angry, wrathful God. Now I
view him as being good, loving, merciful and forgiving and I
feel closer to God. This has also changed my way of viewing
other people to not be so legalistic and judgemental. There is a
scripture that I like among many others; Psalm 27:13 Yet I am
confident I will see the LORD’s goodness while I am here in the
land of the living.... And that nothing can separate us from the
love of God.
#Post#: 9627--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: Brad Date: November 28, 2014, 10:24 pm
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UR stands for?
#Post#: 9628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: guest6 Date: November 28, 2014, 10:50 pm
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[quote author=Brad link=topic=915.msg9627#msg9627
date=1417235090]
UR stands for?
[/quote]
Universal Reconciliation
#Post#: 9629--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: coldwar Date: November 29, 2014, 12:16 am
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... Or "Ultimate Restoration". Same thing really, but I see a
subtle difference. "Ultimate" implies that at the end of time
(or the ages as we imagine them), God will "restore" (the
Biblical word) all things to himself .. But either expression is
valid, and not worth arguing over.
Kerry ^ "The way I see it, the only people who can't be saved
are those no one else cares about."
I would think that if nobody cares about a person, surely at the
very least, God would love that person all the more(?) Do you
mean the little child in India who has to dig through a
land-fill to get his next meal because nobody cares about his
welfare, or do you mean a man who lived totally for himself,
serving only money, got extremely rich and burned all his
bridges to people, and God, doing it?
#Post#: 9630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: Kerry Date: November 29, 2014, 6:42 am
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[quote author=coldwar link=topic=915.msg9629#msg9629
date=1417241781]
I would think that if nobody cares about a person, surely at the
very least, God would love that person all the more(?) Do you
mean the little child in India who has to dig through a
land-fill to get his next meal because nobody cares about his
welfare, or do you mean a man who lived totally for himself,
serving only money, got extremely rich and burned all his
bridges to people, and God, doing it?[/quote]
The latter. No matter how much some people get -- money or
power or whatever else drives them -- it's never enough. They
are never happy, never grateful for what they do have. For this
type of person, other people are not real people -- they are
like objects meant to used, fooled and used.
#Post#: 9631--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: Laurie Date: November 29, 2014, 6:58 am
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[quote=Helen]What I don't understand is why so many get bent out
of shape about it.[/quote]
I've seen quite a few get really angry. Most who do get bent
out of shape just immediately assume that it is a license to
sin, and won't even research to find out how that is not true.
I wonder if it is because they think that salvation means being
saved from being eternally tormented in a place called hell?
#Post#: 9632--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just a chat
By: Runner Date: November 29, 2014, 11:04 am
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Thank you all so much for your responses. As I have been
dwelling upon your answers , it seems to me that those people
who reject it "because the bible says so"period. Must be people
who lack love in their own lives..either receiving it or giving
it. Some people sound quite offended at the thought that some
sinner may yet be saved from eternal fire!! They seem to feel
that 'they earned it'...yet they do not see the darkness still
in themselves!! Yet..
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with
what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
I have always said that I would rather believe that all will be
restored and find I am wrong, than believe that God's intent
when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, was
hell for most of mankind!!! NOT that that it is a 'reason' I
believe..I believe because God showed me, and I saw an 'open'
vision in '91.
But, just like the Rapture thing which I threw out years ago, if
God slaps my head when I arrive, and says " you got it wrong,
that wasn't Me speaking." Then so be it... I will continue to
believe in the God of Love until I die or He shows me otherwise.
:)
Laurie said:- I wonder if it is because they think that
salvation means being saved from being eternally tormented in a
place called hell?
I really liked that thought, it had never crossed my mind. I am
tucking that one away for future use. Thanks
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